Has Facebook killed this Forum?

[Bruce Fielding]

So this is continuing on Facebook, But I'll keep the conversation going here, thank you...

Oh, and you know me, Andrew... I like a good argy bargy...

This is a serious matter. It goes much deeper, I think,

Facebook is a lazy option which is why it's so popular (along with much of Social Media). It appeals to many unattractive personality traits that all human beings are innately imbued with. However, it's ultimately not terribly satisfying and transient, unlike the Forum over which the club has total control and appears to be a much 'better place' for content.

I haven't checked but I'd be amazed if the website isn't 'Responsive' so that the forum will work happily and look good on any device.

But that's maybe a side issue. Yes, it's people who make the forum, but those in charge need to lead the way. There's been very little obvious leadership lately.And whilst I appreciate that there may be stuff going on behind the scenes, it doesn't seem to me that there's much impetus to show the way. For example, when's the next Dawn Raid? Or the next trackday? And those are just the basics...

Leaders need to be present, and I don't think that the current group have sufficient time and/or energy to commit to the club in a way that makes it work. It's not their fault. We must all appreciate that there have been many perfectly valid reasons why this is the case, but 'If you don't have the time, don't be the Prime'.

[Bruce Fielding]

Couple more thoughts.

1. Because you have to use your real name on Facebook and you don't on here, I have no idea who is who between the two.

2. It might be that it isn't Facebook that's killing the forum. If not, then what is it? Maybe a poll... I'll start one here


Edited... Slight snag. Apparently, normal members (or apparently normal members) don't have authority to start polls...

[Steve Gibson]

It doesn't seem to me that there's much impetus to show the way. For example, when's the next Dawn Raid? Or the next trackday? And those are just the basics. Leaders need to be present, and I don't think that the current group have sufficient time and/or energy to commit to the club in a way that makes it work.

Already planned for this year, in this order:

The Border Blast
Silverstone Supercar Sunday
Midsummer Gas (with club track day)
The Spa trackday, which Nick Mason is attending and others can join with
The Italia Trip

Owners are free to organise dawn raids or trips to events like Goodwood or Bicester, if they really want them. It's always been that way. Not all events have to be proposed by club officials, surely.

'No impetus'?

[Alex Brandon-Smith]

So this is continuing on Facebook, But I'll keep the conversation going here, thank you...

Oh, and you know me, Andrew... I like a good argy bargy...

This is a serious matter. It goes much deeper, I think,

Facebook is a lazy option which is why it's so popular (along with much of Social Media). It appeals to many unattractive personality traits that all human beings are innately imbued with. However, it's ultimately not terribly satisfying and transient, unlike the Forum over which the club has total control and appears to be a much 'better place' for content.

I haven't checked but I'd be amazed if the website isn't 'Responsive' so that the forum will work happily and look good on any device.

But that's maybe a side issue. Yes, it's people who make the forum, but those in charge need to lead the way. There's been very little obvious leadership lately.And whilst I appreciate that there may be stuff going on behind the scenes, it doesn't seem to me that there's much impetus to show the way. For example, when's the next Dawn Raid? Or the next trackday? And those are just the basics...

Leaders need to be present, and I don't think that the current group have sufficient time and/or energy to commit to the club in a way that makes it work. It's not their fault. We must all appreciate that there have been many perfectly valid reasons why this is the case, but 'If you don't have the time, don't be the Prime'.

Ok so here's my response to all this.

Firstly, things have changed tremendously in just 10 years. The Ariel ownership exclusivity is no longer what it was. There are far more people compared to 10 years ago who own one of the models. They change hands more frequently as the new generation of owners often want quick hit excitement and then get bored as they realise that the cars sit in the garage for 6 months of the year and there's something bigger and better to buy. Consequently there is not the want to be a part of an exclusive club these days. Linked to this, the way we used and work with data has changed and consequently we are all much busier people. This leave less time for chatting/banter on a forum as many will simply want to get the cars out and go for a drive. FB is quiet too. In fact I have come on here and seen best part of 20 unread posts, each with multiple responses in which is far more than on FB.

Leadership. Ok here goes. Since I took over the following changes and events have taken place:

1. Ariel Club is independent from Ariel
2. We have a new website
3. We have a new forum which has ability to be used on mobile devices
4. There is a host of new merchandise promoting all models
5. We have a new summer event which I have personally bent over backward to get started (which I note you'll be attending Bruce) including track day and off road run outs
6. We have another epic trip to Italy planned after last year's epic trip to Portugal (well done G)
7. We have a club event at Silverstone to attend
8. We have the Border Blast coming up
9. Behind the scenes there is a new accounting package to help with reporting and accounting
10. It has taken me nearly 6 months in battle with Natwest to convert the bank accounts over from Ariel control.

So Bruce, forgive me if I see your comment about "Being the Prime" as more than a little bit flippant and personal. Let's also not forget that first and foremost I am the legal and financial custodian of this club and here to ensure it's financial stability for the members and the next man in charge. In all honesty, your rose-tinted glasses of the past mean nothing to a club if no club exists and considering the previous checkered financial history of the club, you shouldn't start poking the hornet's nest...

Finally this club is a members club. I very much appreciate that it needs some leadership. Hopefully there have been some positive changes and I very much appreciate those who give positive and constructive feedback. I am doing all I can to bring the club together with the huge help of Steve, Phil and the usual suspects who help run the club. But the club cannot be solely run and sustained by us. Therefore I suggest that firstly, members send the committee some ideas by email on how things can be improved. Be that structural changes to the forum, website, FB whatever. I am more than happy to listen and to discuss those ideas individually and in an open forum. Secondly, if members don't want to get involved in posting, replying, then that's fine, but seriously there can be no complaints from those people if there's no content or heart to the club. I will run this club to keep those doors open in order to keep the information alive and current.

Lastly, I am not prepared to run the club just so members can have a slanging match. That little setup did not work in the past and I'm not prepared to let it go there again. If that's what you're after, then I suggest you have too much time on your hands and you should probably think about going elsewhere.

Can I suggest we start by supporting those events which have currently had a great deal of time spent on them for the benefit of the club members. They cannot be a success without you lot. The Mid Summer Gas in particular will only become a great annual driving event if people make the time to get there. Secondly, send in those ideas and changes, and then we can see if we can make them happen, and of course, lastly, let's get organising some more stuff for people to attend locally. It's the only way it's worked in the past and that impetus needs to continue.

Cheers guys.

The Prime with no time.

[autobackup]

Alex

I would endorse 95% of your post having, in the past, run something very similar online for the BA flying community (albeit not car based!)

One of the problems that club administrators frequently run up against is the propensity of club members to be full of enthusiasm and extremely helpful until the time comes that they are actually asked to do something physical whereupon most are not seen for dust - t'was ever the way!!

Running a club is generally a peculiarly thankless task as often everybody has an opinion and is frequently very happy to join in to events that others have organised but won't organise anything themselves, stand for office or a position on the committee - too busy you know old boy!!

Personally I have been trying to find a way to join the Italy trip from Cyprus this summer (if my Atom were based in the UK you would see me at most events) but I am running up against insurance problems as I cannot seem to obtain valid insurance for my Cyprus registered Atom for use in Greece or Italy - Green cards are an alien concept in Cyprus motor insurance as virtually nobody takes their car off the Island as it is extremely difficult and expensive to do so.

It is entirely possible, but not cheap, to get my Atom to Athens via the Salamis Shipping Line twice weekly freightliner (lorry) Ro-Ro ferry then drive to Patras (2 hours) followed by a car ferry (ANEK Line) across to Ancona in Italy to join the trip - but to do so legally it appears that I would probably have to re-register my Atom in the UK, tax it, obtain an UK MOT and also get UK insurance cover. I would then have to carryout the reverse procedure after the trip was finished - all of which would be a total bureaucratic nightmare!!

[Bruce Fielding]

Firstly, things have changed tremendously in just 10 years. The Ariel ownership exclusivity is no longer what it was. There are far more people compared to 10 years ago who own one of the models. They change hands more frequently as the new generation of owners often want quick hit excitement and then get bored as they realise that the cars sit in the garage for 6 months of the year and there's something bigger and better to buy. Consequently there is not the want to be a part of an exclusive club these days.

Completely agree about the nature of ownership, but the mentality and personality of owners I don't think has changed that much.

In fact I have come on here and seen best part of 20 unread posts, each with multiple responses in which is far more than on FB.

No comment...

The way we used and work with data has changed and consequently we are all much busier people. This leave less time for chatting/banter on a forum as many will simply want to get the cars out and go for a drive. FB is quiet too.

I do agree that the Internet has stolen a massive amount of time from everyone (as well as our data) which means that people don't believe they have that much spare time any more. It's bollocks, by the way, but those that control the Internet would like you to believe that you're busier and working harder and better, even if you're just doing sh1t that could easily not be done at all.

Leadership. Ok here goes. Since I took over...

By leadership, I wasn't referring to one person. I suspect that the committee as a whole hasn't had much time to step in and help you whilst you yourself have been busy, Alex. It sounds like you're doing all this on your own, but the committee was set up in the first place to take some of the load off. If anyone can sympathise with you, it's me.

To take the specifics

The Ariel Atom Owner's Club was always independent from Ariel until... well, let's not rake over cold coals.

There wasn't that much wrong with the old website except that it was out of date because no one one was actually contributing to it. I admit that modern Wordpress etc. tech has made it easier to build responsive and easily edited sites, but the new site is still suffering from the same malaise. There's a dearth of new content. Perhaps active discussions like this one will give owners the incentive they need to contribute.

Was there really a need for a new forum? The old one with regular updates would have been fine and it could have used the tech that makes it easier to use on mobiles.

The merchandise I understand is being fulfilled externally. Not exactly tricky. And it's been a LONG time since I shut down Atomstuff.

The Summer event I'll grant is something new and special and an excellent idea, and I hope and believe that it'll be a great success.

The AAOC always organised European trips (usually every couple of years) so that's not new. The off-road runs and the Nomad go hand in gland so that is something new created by the existence of a new product.

The organising of get togethers is a staple of the club and in fact largely why the AAOC was founded in the first place.

Back office stuff can be a bitch and I appreciate that it takes too much time and brain space to get this stuff done these days. You have my sympathy

Yes, my remark may have been a little flippant but often my most poignant remarks are.

Let us also not forget that the club members OWN the club. The legal and financial responsibilities of the club are not yours alone, but also that of your fellow director Steve Gibson (I note that Tom resigned as of four months ago).

Lastly, I'd love to know what you mean about the financial stability of the club. I haven't seen a set of accounts for years. Under my control it was financially sound and I put a significant amount of my own money into it to get it started so please, do be more specific...

Discussing these things in the open is the best way to know what the people that own the club want from it and want done with it. Private messages aren't the best route if the club wishes to be perceived as open.

I'm sorry that you see this as a slanging match as it wasn't my intention to cast any personal aspersions against any one person. I was rather commenting on the general leadership of the committee. I have nothing but respect for you personally.

As you know, I will be going elsewhere, but I refuse to see what was an excellent club going down the tubes without a bloody good fight before I depart.

[Bruce Fielding]

It is entirely possible, but not cheap, to get my Atom to Athens via the Salamis Shipping Line.

Salamis have their own shipping line! I thought they were just yummy bits of sliced horse!

[Bruce Fielding]

The Border Blast - Digger and George's initiative
Silverstone Supercar Sunday - Invitation for static display by organisers
Midsummer Gas (with club track day) - This one is indeed a fine club initiative
The Spa trackday, which Nick Mason is attending and others can join with - Sir Nick's initiative
The Italia Trip - Digger's initiative

Owners are free to organise dawn raids or trips to events like Goodwood or Bicester, if they really want them. It's always been that way. Not all events have to be proposed by club officials, surely.

Yes, not all, but when there are so few, maybe some sort of intervention is required. Go back to the reasons why the AAOC was set up - reasons that have been ported to the Ariel Club. When the spinning plates start to slow down, it's surely the club's turn to give them a twiddle... Given that there are hundreds and hundreds of members in the UK and around the world, three British events and two European ones seems a little light... Other car clubs with similar membership numbers are offered many more opportunities to show off!

[Steve Gibson]

I refuse to see what was an excellent club going down the tubes without a bloody good fight before I depart.

This is just bullshit, Bruce. Nothing is going down the tubes. Times change, the club's changed. Alex has listed all the work so far and you've tried to dismiss almost every single one of his points. Apart from Midsummer Gas approval, you don't have a good word to say.

All you have done since AAOC became Ariel Club is moan and heckle from the sidelines.

Give it up. Walk away gracefully.

[Bruce Fielding]

I refuse to see what was an excellent club going down the tubes without a bloody good fight before I depart.

This is just bullshit, Bruce. Nothing is going down the tubes. Times change, the club's changed. Alex has listed all the work so far and you've tried to dismiss almost every single one of his points. Apart from Midsummer Gas approval, you don't have a good word to say.

All you have done since AAOC became Ariel Club is moan and heckle from the sidelines.

Give it up. Walk away gracefully.

Nope. Not my style.

It isn't bullshit. It's the truth. Or maybe in this era the truth is bullshit. I don't know.

If you read my post you'll see that the point I was making is exactly the point that you made - which is that it's the members who are doing the heavy lifting as far as events go (and that's the way it's always been). For the club to claim responsibility is disingenuous.

And I believe you'll find that whenever I see something that I think is wrong or disagree with I'll stand up and be counted (not just here but anywhere). And that's been from the very beginning. I've been objecting to things LONG before Ariel Club. People thinking that something's wrong and doing or saying nothing is what's got the world to the point that it currently stands.

[Steve Gibson]

You're entitled to your opinion, Bruce.

But keep up the moaning and you'll look like an embittered, old man – because everything was evidently better when Bruce was in charge.

[Alex Brandon-Smith]

If I'm perfectly honest, I think those people who are helping to organise stuff (Digger in particular) know how grateful I am personally for their help in keeping the club moving. However, the leadership needs to be there in order to keep the club afloat to enable these things to happen. We are in danger of missing the original point.

The original point was to express concern that the forum was quiet and the suggestion that the club is going quiet because of this. My listing of what was happening with the club was in no way intended to play down the part of those members and I think they know that. My post was to show there are some major events happening this year and to to also hit back at what was, in fact, quite a personal slight against my leadership and that of those who are helping me. Bruce if it wasn't intended that way, as you suggest, then I think you need to choose your words more carefully. The people around me have made the changes to this club and I am very grateful for that too and I will defend their work wholeheartedly.

This club is not going down the pan. In fact it's healthier than ever. Sometimes things go quiet, sometimes they bubble away nicely. We have new things to look forward to and, to be fair, apart from the forum being a bit quiet, there's plenty to keep us occupied and that's changed very little since your day Bruce. Of course, members organising stuff has always been the lifeblood and we encourage that entirely.

Ultimately constructive criticism of the way we do things is the only way to get things done. A slanging match gets us no where. I suggest we wrap this up and get down to the business of continuing to keep this club alive.

[GraemeW]

Alex, I just love touring in a great drivers car, on great roads, and don't mind organising some of these tours, even if it does take some time. The Club, and Forum are the perfect place for me to find people who share this passion, and make new friends. I really enjoyed both Steve and Bruces company on last years tour, so don't enjoy a slanging match here. Peace, guys? Maybe this would be better discussed face to face sometime where we don't misinterpret each others comments. At MSG?

You are right Alex, going back to the original point of this topic, I do agree this forum is quieter, and as I said before, a contributing factor may be because its new, different or unfamiliar. Thats not a criticism of its creator ( I think Phil? Who bust a gut to cutover all the data and run this forum?) but, rather, finding ways to encourage more people to use and value it? Some contributors on this topic have offered possible reasons (both here and Facebook), and others may yet do. Perhaps we can discuss some options to address these at MSG again?

As I am still a relatively new Atom owner and club member, I love the forum, both old and new, and frequently visit to see whats happening in the lives of fellow Ariel fans, however this year especially, I frequently find nothing new, which is disappointing. There is an upside I suppose, I sit on the forum alone, like Billy no mates, in the absence of nothing new, reading through interesting older topics and material. I have discovered quite a lot I didn't know about the car, the club, and the members. I suppose one day if/when the novelty wears off, I too will be an infrequent visitor

[Bruce Fielding]

You're entitled to your opinion, Bruce.

Thank you. That's all this is, just an opinion. Oh, and it's also just an internet forum.

But keep up the moaning and you'll look like an embittered, old man...

Oh, but I am. We all get there eventually. Doesn't mean that I'm not right though.

...everything was evidently better when Bruce was in charge.

That's very kind.It's nice to be appreciated.

End.

[Trigger]

FB is old school for most younger people now - and as you say Bruce, no good to search for information. A good place to link an event perhaps, and maybe post trip photos - but for the main pretty useless as a resource.

I havent had an Ariel for 6 years, so now I have a Nomad on the way I am back and more active. From 2007 to 2012 the forum was a large part of what i looked at, and there was alot of good debates and information. It was a great place to start when owning such a strange car !

The Seloc forum (Lotus S E) is very active and huge in its members and posts - so I am not sure its a trend overall. But I do agree the menus and groups are confusing. You look at one bit for general posts and another for model specific and another for club news etc etc. It could do with compacting. Also that would help make it look busy.

I have asked a few things and the responses have been minimal. But maybe its up to the longer members to rise up !!

Oh and to add - one thing that really killed things off years back was slanging matches - lets all be positive and avoid that. I think the summer bash could be a great tool to get things livened up again.

Trigger