Re: Euro Vote - Are you In or Out?

[jpswift]

There is no answer to that j

We are a generous , fair, tolerant ,  wealthy country that speaks the right language

For the majority of the  have nots that do  manage to get here it's like winning the lottery compared to what they are used to

So they will keep coming, legally or otherwise

[julian]

My problem is with the EU policy on this subject. I believe we should take our share of people from war torn countries. My problem is our open borders with Eastern Europe and the realistic potential for hundreds of thousands of people to arrive in the uk.

When we joined in 1972, it was about trade with like countries not mass migration from the Eastern block.

We should show more loyalty to the commonwealth countries, Aus, NZ etc, who have been loyal to us and those people.

Julian

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="julian"]
I hear the above arguments for in or out but my questions remain unanswered, what about the infurstructure?

Housing

School places

Health
[/quote]

Housing isn't a problem, except in London. And having met personally both Zac and Sadiq, I'm voting for Zac, even though I'm not a Tory. His housing plan makes the most sense (and he seems like a more honest and independent guy than Sadiq). Immigrants to the UK don't have to live in London, and indeed most don't.

Schools are a problem I've never had to deal with, but the education system is another major problem that needs a significant, long-term vision (not the five year plan that governments implement).

Health is a big problem. People are living longer thanks to advances in medicines and treatments which are starting to cost an awful lot, and older people need more of it than younger, fitter ones. Either the price of healthcare has to reduce, or the provision has to be restricted. Wars used to deal with this, but the likelihood of major wars is now almost non-existent. The only one I might foresee is one between moderate liberals and fundamentalists. European membership makes health tourism much easier, though. And currently, UK hospitals are staffed by people from many nations. To stop healthcare professionals from coming here would be a big mistake (not to mention hospital ancillary staff).

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="julian"]
My problem is with the EU policy on this subject. I believe we should take our share of people from war torn countries. My problem is our open borders with Eastern Europe and the realistic potential for hundreds of thousands of people to arrive in the uk.

When we joined in 1972, it was about trade with like countries not mass migration from the Eastern block.

We should show more loyalty to the commonwealth countries, Aus, NZ etc, who have been loyal to us and those people.

Julian
[/quote]

[jpswift]

as everyone knows, these net migration charts are all bogus as the volume of "illegals" is not shown( but large!)

also, the emigrants are often the kind of people we would like to retain. They are seeking a better future and are prepared to actually pay for it themselves , having sold up in the uk and taking their wealth with them.

they are not expecting to turn up at their destination and be homed, fed, educated etc

that doesnt always happen with people coming the other way 

[julian]

Spot on Justin. The government quotes the freedom British people have to resettle in Europe. They are mainly wealthy retired, majority retired and buy homes in France or Spain and enjoy retirement.

They do not all of a sudden decide to go and resettle in Romania, Bulgaria or another Eastern block country.

That table means nothing.

With reference to employing foreign nationals in the NHS, of course I am for that but they should come here on a points system to fill gaps.

Ideally train British people to be Nurses etc. Pay them more and make the proffession attractive.

Education, huge problem, schools at breaking point now with full capacity. It will be in the news shortly when parents don't have a place for their children for the September intake.

Housing, the building of houses is just scratching at the problem for the existing homeless not the continued influx of people from Eastern Europe and beyond.

Migrants living in London, the majority, millions are in London because this is where the work is. Of course there are people who have dispersed to other parts but most are here searching for a home which is not available.

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="justin swift"]
also, the emigrants are often the kind of people we would like to retain.
[/quote]

And they are also skilled immigrants who have had enough of the prejudice and racism in the UK and have decided to take their talents elsewhere.

I have an interest in a business employing around 500 people, most of whom aren't of British origin - mostly eastern european - and they all pay tax and NI (as do we). In the next two years, we expect to double or triple our staff who will also most likely be eastern European, mainly because British people don't apply to do the job. Being in the EU will make companies like this more successful.

Scare stories sell newspapers and attract viewers. Don't believe all you're told by newspapers (naming no names) that historically supported fascism.

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="julian"]
With reference to employing foreign nationals in the NHS, of course I am for that but they should come here on a points system to fill gaps.

Ideally train British people to be Nurses etc. Pay them more and make the proffession attractive.

[/quote]

Nursing is a vocation. You can't make people want to do it. Nurses do what they do because they want to help people. I'm getting old now, and I don't give a flying fcuk where they were born. They can't be paid more unless everyone is prepared to pay more tax. Or unless we scrap most of our military - which actually I'm all for.

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="julian"]
Migrants living in London, the majority, millions are in London because this is where the work is. Of course there are people who have dispersed to other parts but most are here searching for a home which is not available.
[/quote]

London's population is 8.5 million... How many millions of those are migrants (given that there are c.3 million migrants in whole of the UK in total out of 64 million) ?

[jpswift]

thats the great thing about the uk......... debate, agree to disagree etc

the average joe public resents people coming here uninvited expecting us to look after them

on the other hand, people that are prepared to graft and not try to change things to suit their beliefs are welcomed

there are fundamental differences in some of these cultures that we are expected to welcomeembrace that are pretty abhorrent

however, the liberal leaning minority tend to be the most vociferous so any hint of disagreement gets shouted down as knuckle dragging racism

which i am expecting shortly...........

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="justin swift"]
there are fundamental differences in some of these cultures that we are expected to welcome/embrace that are pretty abhorrent

[/quote]

On that, we agree. I am absolutely against people who wish to impose foreign values on our society, and that's as I mentioned before is something that could start a war.

I'm as British any any other third generation offspring of Russian immigrants (fleeing pogrom) can be. My grandparents didn't inflict their beliefs on the indigenous population. They just got on with it. My parents fought for this country in WW2. I think I have integrated completely into British society. But that doesn't give me the right to now claim that the country is 'full' or that we shouldn't take in more immigrants. Practically everyone here thinking they're 'British' came from somewhere else or has antecedents in other countries. Britain is full of immigrants. Only most of them, like me, think they're British.

[jpswift]

always thought you were a bit odd bruce

that explains it 

oh, and you can stay !

[autobackup]

This has been a very interesting debate (by most!) to follow.

Having retired as a pilot from British Airways in 2003, in 2004 my wife and I voted with our feet and moved to live in Cyprus (although we have retained a property in the UK) the main reason behind our leaving the UK - besides the flat rate of 5% tax levied on foreign pensions in Cyprus  -  was the policies being pursued by Tony Blair's Labour Government at the time - his appallingly fiscally ignorant Chancellor, Gordon Brown (history graduate knowing NOTHING about finance!), had single handedly and effectively managed to destroy many occupational pension schemes by abolishing Advance Corporation Tax in his 1997 budget - something which many, whose eventual pensions were much reduced because of it, seem to have forgotten.

Unfortunately, in regard to the coming referendum, any expatriates who have been out of the UK for more than 15 years have been disenfranchised and can no longer vote in UK elections/referendii - even if they live elsewhere in the EU!

Should the UK electorate decide to leave the EU it might possibly have a serious effect on those of us living elsewhere in the EU.

There has been a long thread about insuring Atoms in this forum - currently the Green Card system is an EU based agreement - I remember the days, prior to joining the EU when, if you wanted to take a car into Europe, you had to ask your insurance company for a quote to do so - to drive my MGA Twincam in 1968 to Holzgau in the Austrian Tirrol in 1968 for 14 days skiing cost me an additional premium of £32 on top of my annual £91 insurance to drive in the UK - will this happen again if we leave the EU?

Finally, while I have little faith in any flavour of government (or politicians) in the UK, I have personally been voting since 1966 and have discovered over the intervening years that whenever the Labour party has been in power the UK was almost invariably ALWAYS worse off after their stint in government - however, while watching from a far, the awful thought of a Corbyn led government fills me with horror and foreboding!

I have a sneaking feeling that there are many issues that we currently take for granted, and seldom think about, whilst the UK is a member of the EU which might simply be altered or even disappear (cost more?) should the UK leave?

PC

[Kezzie]

On the subject of Brexit or Bremain I am undecided.
This is entirely down to neither side stating any facts on the pros and cons of staying in or jumping ship.
Immigration is a major issue for which I am on the side of stronger controls of our borders and whom we let cross them and for how long. Which side is promising this? It seems both are from what I can gather.
Over regulation from Brussels Again I've no idea how much this actually affects us as a country. How many of our laws are dictated by the EU and would they be rewritten if we left?
Finances How much do we pay, overall, to be a member of the EU and how much do we actually receive back in subsidies and rebates? A simple breakdown would suffice as I'm no Merchant Banker. Backhanders don't count nor does "Black money" whatever the f*ck that is but which, apparently, is used by the EU to determine rebates
Employment How many jobs are actually at risk if we left? Not just a made up number for the sake of scaremongering. Also, how many jobs would be created by repatriations of EU citizens who no longer qualify to remain in the UK if we do exit?

I could go on but my brain hurts now. I might add more topics as I think of them or if either side actually mention something with substance.

Adrian

[ross]

I'm still making my mind up, but I'm err'ing towards staying.

I don't believe the bullshit about immigrants being the cause of all our woes.  They're generally much harder working than many of the fuckwits that were born here and this issue is too easy a target for what is a much bigger issue.

And yes, our health system is under massive stress, but I don't think leaving the EU is the fix for that.

Economically, will we be better off?  Maybe in the long run, maybe not.  But in the short term (ie. next decade), I'm pretty sure it will be chaotic and I'd rather avoid that.

One thing that I think hasn't been discussed very much is what effect our leaving will have on the EU itself.

If the effect on the EU was bad (you'd have to assume it wouldn't be good given the EU's relatively fragile state at the moment) is that a good or a bad thing for the UK over the next few decades?

I personally would prefer to have my kids grow up in a country that has a stable European continent on our doorstep.

Perhaps the UK leaving would have no de-stabilising effect on the EU, but what if it did and we were eventually left with the EU fractured into a load of isolationist states?

I suspect that if the UK leaves the EU it will eventually trigger another Scottish referendum as well - another break-up I'd rather avoid.

Then again, part of me likes a good old shake up from time to time....