Rover Head Gasket Failure

[wisp]

[quote="Curator"]
^ Make the bastard pay for a new cylinder head

Jesus,I HATE incompetence!
[/quote]

It's not worth the agro. I'll use the multi-layer steel gasket instead. It has a metal shim that covers the whole head face and should lift the head at least the extra amount that was taken off. It's damn annoying because I've waited two months to get the right gasket from the UK where I could have bought the MLS version off the shelf.

The alternative is to have each valve re-seated to set them further back in the head. I'm sure this is why the twat took so much off because he kept going on about doing all the valves despite it not being necessary. He said I'll have to do them now and it will cost extra. We do these heads all the time for Lotus and Rover owners can spend up to $1500 on the as they are not easy to replace. Well I saw right through that BS. Thinking he had me over a barrel and was going to keep winding up the bill.

Or I could just slap it on the car and hope the valves don't smack into the pistons.

[DarthChicken]

WAIT... he screwed up and then was gonna bill you to fix it?  Did I read that right? 

[wisp]

One resurfaced head.....

[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0435.jpg[/img]
Note: I ground out the bits left in the casting process that should have been removed to give clear flow of water through the head.


...a new multi-layer steel HG set....
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0438.jpg[/img]

This shot shows the adhesive side of the upper gasket.
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0437.jpg[/img]

I was told by my mechanic freind to make sure that all the mating surfaces were spotlessly clean by using a rag and white spirits.
This included the block and tops of the liners.
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0436.jpg[/img]
Note: New steel locating dowels replace the earlier plastic ones. This is an improvement to prevent the current failure problems.

[wisp]

I probably would have finished last weekend if the new torque wrench I'd bought had a low enough range. Now I have two torque wrenches covering both ranges that I needed to complete the job.

Here's the first part of the gasket in place....
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0497.jpg[/img]

....the second part....
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0498.jpg[/img]

...and then the head.
[img width=600 height=433]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0500.jpg[/img]

Here's a Rover K series head bolt for anyone that hasn't seen one. You can reuse the existing, if they measure up OK, but I opted for a full new set.
[img width=600 height=443]http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg307/4Racers/Atom%20mods/IMG_0502.jpg[/img]

[DarthChicken]

Good lord look at the length of that thing, no wonder you had a headgasket failure.  Good call on getting new bolts, something that long stretches like a mofo I bet.

[Driver]

What Darth said. I've never seen one that long that did'nt belong to a Cruise Ship like the Queen Mary! Does it go all the way through the block and act as a suspension point to bolt in the lower control arms? Glad too hear you have it back together.

[McFred]

It must go all the way down and clamp the crankshaft main caps too.  Long bolts like that are actually pretty nice in a clamping application because they are more springy, making their installation less critical.  Thanks for the interesting pictures!

[wisp]

[quote="DarthChicken"]
Good lord look at the length of that thing, no wonder you had a headgasket failure.
[/quote]

Not only did they have a long bolt that enables more flex but the locating dowels were plastic (non-corrosive) which allowed the head to walk (micro movements) on top of the block. The new gasket kits all come with steel locating dowels.

[quote="McFred"]
It must go all the way down and clamp the crankshaft main caps too.  Long bolts like that are actually pretty nice in a clamping application because they are more springy, making their installation less critical.  Thanks for the interesting pictures!
[/quote]

They go all the way down to a tapped casting know as an oil rail that is part of the bottom end of the engine. To do them up you first toque all bolts, in sequence, to 20Nm (14.75 ft. lb) then tight each bolt a further 180o then finish by tightening each bolt a second 180o.

[Driver]

[quote="wisp"]
Not only did they have a long bolt that enables more flex but the locating dowels were plastic (non-corrosive) which allowed the head to walk (micro movements) on top of the block. The new gasket kits all come with steel locating dowels.[/quote]

I've heard similar concerns with using a turbo on V8 iron blocks with aluminum heads (assume it would be the same on a 4 banger).  The added heat causing the dissimilar metals to expand at different rates and "Head Crawl" slowly chews up the head gasket to the point of failure.

[benyeats]

[quote="wisp"]
[quote="DarthChicken"]
Good lord look at the length of that thing, no wonder you had a headgasket failure.
[/quote]

Not only did they have a long bolt that enables more flex but the locating dowels were plastic (non-corrosive) which allowed the head to walk (micro movements) on top of the block. The new gasket kits all come with steel locating dowels.

[quote="McFred"]
It must go all the way down and clamp the crankshaft main caps too.  Long bolts like that are actually pretty nice in a clamping application because they are more springy, making their installation less critical.  Thanks for the interesting pictures!
[/quote]

They go all the way down to a tapped casting know as an oil rail that is part of the bottom end of the engine. To do them up you first toque all bolts, in sequence, to 20Nm (14.75 ft. lb) then tight each bolt a further 180o then finish by tightening each bolt a second 180o.

[/quote]

The plastic dowls were at the insistence of the geniuses at BMW who wanted to save a few pence during their ownership of Rover.  The long bolt 'sandwich' construction of the engine is a great way to do it IMO

Ben

[benyeats]

[quote="Guardian of the module"]
No modern configuration uses this type of construction.
[/quote]

Not so the engine used in the current MG cars does and no doubt the Chinese market only versions of same.  The K-series flaws are well published and understood and the dowels are the problem not the long bolts.  See this article for more details

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... .html  (may take a while)

Ben

[rlucking]

[quote="Guardian of the module"]
I said MODERN configuration.Not something regurgitated from the 50's... 
[/quote]

Well... it was first "launched" in 1989/1990 in the Metro and 200 (IIRC!), and (again IIRC) it was developed from scratch not "regurgitated" 

HTH

Rich

[Driver]

Modern is a very vague term. pre-war, 50's, 60's, 80's.. where does one draw the line? Also makes a huge difference between stock power levels and upping the boost I'd think. heck until the late 90's we still had Chevy and Ford V8's that had their roots in the 50's with little major redesign. Sure head gastes have better materials, machining is to tighter tolerances, etc... but a iron block and a aluminum head are going to move different to each other. Good thing the Honda in the Atom's are aluminum for both.

[rlucking]

[quote="Driver"]
Modern is a very vague term. pre-war, 50's, 60's, 80's.. where does one draw the line?
[/quote]

Indeed... it was just the "regurgitated from the 50's" I thought I'd correct

[quote="Driver"]
Also makes a huge difference between stock power levels and upping the boost I'd think. heck until the late 90's we still had Chevy and Ford V8's that had their roots in the 50's with little major redesign.
[/quote]

Indeed - the ZT-T had a Ford V8 which was "very underpowered" for the capacity...

[quote="Driver"]
Sure head gastes have better materials, machining is to tighter tolerances, etc... but a iron block and a aluminum head are going to move different to each other. Good thing the Honda in the Atom's are aluminum for both.
[/quote]

One other thing (IIRC) - the Rover K Series is alloy throughout, hence weighing less (IIRC) than the Honda K, just in case you were suggesting otherwise

Rich

[benyeats]

[quote="Guardian of the module"]
I said MODERN configuration.Not something regurgitated from the 50's... 
British engineers are the most stubborn lot in the known universe. Triumph motorcycles continued to have positive earth grounding right into 1979,even though the rest of the world accepted negative earth as the correct path in the early 1960's. Tradition is one thing.Unbending faith in design,in the light of reality, is sheer madness...    
[/quote]

I assume you did not read the article I linked to.  The K-series is all Aluminium and substantially lighter than the Honda engine (c/f BHP / KG figures) and has a much wider torque band.

The Rover V8 was of course a 1950s throwback but really not sure where you got that idea about the K-series.  I know you are not necessarily a Honda fan but look at Rover/ Honda's partnership and how V-tech evolved as kind of a shite version of VVC (has caught up now) to see in which way the majority of technology flowed

Ben