All these threads on the newfangled Honda cars have made me jelous so here is a Mk1 upgrade thread. Things I plan to do to my car over the coming months are:
i) Fit larger intake manifold / injectors from VVC engine, have bought the bits just need to do the job
ii) Source and fit torsen diff and rebuild PG1 gearbox with stonger metal bearings (just for fun) trying to source diff at the moment
iii) Source new cylinder head, port and polish, fit more agressive cams, have bought head need to find time to do the job
iv) Remap engine to run a tad less rich.
All being done for fun / learning and with original bits to re-fit should the mods effect re-sale at some point in future.
Ben
Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
Likewise I am learning more about my MK1 and am keen to improve the overall car while still retaining some originality, for posterity, by retaining the original Rover engine.
I have just realised that the Rover K20 has many variants including a supercharged version that is common in Lotus cars.
My car is one of the least HP options available at 120HP, making it 100HP below most other NZ cars.
If we every have a molecule run I may not be able to keep up.
My Rover ECU is most likely a special for the Atom and may not be available at some stage. This is a concern. Especially if a second hand unit can not be re-flashed with a back-up of my existing setup. Also I am certain that the ECU is a MPi version which means the engine is not VVC.
So my list, along with the 10K other things I have to do in life
is:
1. ECU and tune. (really starting in the dark on this one)
2. Source VVC cylinder head, port and polish.
3. .....
10. Rocket booster.
[quote="benyeats"]
All being done for fun / learning and with original bits to re-fit should the mods effect re-sale at some point in future.
[/quote]
I think that if the car is not changed in any major fashion and the upgrades are to a Rover, which is the breed of engine that the MK1 car came out with, then originality is maintained. The effect on resale should not be any different to that of a later model car that has undergone HP enhancements. In fact the price should improve as your would be offering originality and improvement.
I have just realised that the Rover K20 has many variants including a supercharged version that is common in Lotus cars.
My car is one of the least HP options available at 120HP, making it 100HP below most other NZ cars.
If we every have a molecule run I may not be able to keep up.
My Rover ECU is most likely a special for the Atom and may not be available at some stage. This is a concern. Especially if a second hand unit can not be re-flashed with a back-up of my existing setup. Also I am certain that the ECU is a MPi version which means the engine is not VVC.
So my list, along with the 10K other things I have to do in life
is:1. ECU and tune. (really starting in the dark on this one)
2. Source VVC cylinder head, port and polish.
3. .....
10. Rocket booster.
[quote="benyeats"]
All being done for fun / learning and with original bits to re-fit should the mods effect re-sale at some point in future.
[/quote]
I think that if the car is not changed in any major fashion and the upgrades are to a Rover, which is the breed of engine that the MK1 car came out with, then originality is maintained. The effect on resale should not be any different to that of a later model car that has undergone HP enhancements. In fact the price should improve as your would be offering originality and improvement.
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
The good news is I don't think the ECU you have is unique to the Atom, it will be a Rover MEMs unit, which is the bad news as they are non programmable. Good news wise is they can be found in any scrap yard here at least. When you upgrade the engine and need to remap to make the most a company called 'Emerald' make an ECU that is a plug in replacement and very popular.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... ods/k.html
Has loads about tuning the K-series.
Something else I discovered at the weekend (and am kicking myself for not knowing, not for my Atom but just for my Anorak status) is that some Rover 75's had a 1.8L K which was turbo charged as a standard fit and make a reliable 180bhp as they were tuned to feel similar to an NA V6 they have very little turbo lag so could suit the Atom. I have an offer of a ride in an Elise that is thus equipped and will report back afterwards.
Ben
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... ods/k.html
Has loads about tuning the K-series.
Something else I discovered at the weekend (and am kicking myself for not knowing, not for my Atom but just for my Anorak status) is that some Rover 75's had a 1.8L K which was turbo charged as a standard fit and make a reliable 180bhp as they were tuned to feel similar to an NA V6 they have very little turbo lag so could suit the Atom. I have an offer of a ride in an Elise that is thus equipped and will report back afterwards.
Ben
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="benyeats"]
The good news is I don't think the ECU you have is unique to the Atom, it will be a Rover MEMs unit, which is the bad news as they are non programmable. Good news wise is they can be found in any scrap yard here at least. When you upgrade the engine and need to remap to make the most a company called 'Emerald' make an ECU that is a plug in replacement and very popular.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... ods/k.html
Has loads about tuning the K-series.
[/quote]
By MPi I was talking about the version of MEMS unit, ie it is not for VVC.
Here is a site that has some good info on the Rover ones used in the MGF car -> http://www.mgfcar.de/mems1.9/index.htm You will need to browse around a bit but there are explanations and pin-outs.
I had stumbled upon the Emerald site but I have yet to learn about ECUs, enough to decide what is a good 3rd party option.
Any comments on your Pectel motorsport ECU
What currently is the HP of your MK1 and is it VVC?
The sandsmuseum is very useful. I have read some already but not sure if itwas that page.
Obviously there are some good advantages to modifying the head, including cleaning up some of the water galleries to improve flow and cooling.
[quote="benyeats"]
Something else I discovered at the weekend (and am kicking myself for not knowing, not for my Atom but just for my Anorak status) is that some Rover 75's had a 1.8L K which was turbo charged as a standard fit and make a reliable 180bhp as they were tuned to feel similar to an NA V6 they have very little turbo lag so could suit the Atom. I have an offer of a ride in an Elise that is thus equipped and will report back afterwards.
Ben
[/quote]
Oh dear, your crown could be at risk.
Do you mean this engine? I don't Know if I would be keen to have that turbo so close to the fuel tank, pump and lines.
The good news is I don't think the ECU you have is unique to the Atom, it will be a Rover MEMs unit, which is the bad news as they are non programmable. Good news wise is they can be found in any scrap yard here at least. When you upgrade the engine and need to remap to make the most a company called 'Emerald' make an ECU that is a plug in replacement and very popular.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/t ... ods/k.html
Has loads about tuning the K-series.
[/quote]
By MPi I was talking about the version of MEMS unit, ie it is not for VVC.
Here is a site that has some good info on the Rover ones used in the MGF car -> http://www.mgfcar.de/mems1.9/index.htm You will need to browse around a bit but there are explanations and pin-outs.
I had stumbled upon the Emerald site but I have yet to learn about ECUs, enough to decide what is a good 3rd party option.
Any comments on your Pectel motorsport ECU
What currently is the HP of your MK1 and is it VVC?
The sandsmuseum is very useful. I have read some already but not sure if itwas that page.
Obviously there are some good advantages to modifying the head, including cleaning up some of the water galleries to improve flow and cooling.
[quote="benyeats"]
Something else I discovered at the weekend (and am kicking myself for not knowing, not for my Atom but just for my Anorak status) is that some Rover 75's had a 1.8L K which was turbo charged as a standard fit and make a reliable 180bhp as they were tuned to feel similar to an NA V6 they have very little turbo lag so could suit the Atom. I have an offer of a ride in an Elise that is thus equipped and will report back afterwards.
Ben
[/quote]
Oh dear, your crown could be at risk.
Do you mean this engine? I don't Know if I would be keen to have that turbo so close to the fuel tank, pump and lines.
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="wisp"]to decide what is a good 3rd party option.
Any comments on your Pectel motorsport ECU
What currently is the HP of your MK1 and is it VVC?
[/quote]
On paper the Pectel ECU is fantastic and way too advanced for the little old Atom, however as it is aimed at pro-motorsport applications the mapping within it is generally password protected and the software to re-map is expensive (as opposed to being supplied with the ECU as in most cases) still looking into my re-map options. So in summary if you can get one and the software they are ace and can monitor a lot more stuff than Emerald and the like but if you can't get the software then probably not worth it.
My car is an Atom 120 like yours although it is likely putting out slightly more due to the Pectel mapping.
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
Any comments on your Pectel motorsport ECU
What currently is the HP of your MK1 and is it VVC?
[/quote]
On paper the Pectel ECU is fantastic and way too advanced for the little old Atom, however as it is aimed at pro-motorsport applications the mapping within it is generally password protected and the software to re-map is expensive (as opposed to being supplied with the ECU as in most cases) still looking into my re-map options. So in summary if you can get one and the software they are ace and can monitor a lot more stuff than Emerald and the like but if you can't get the software then probably not worth it.
My car is an Atom 120 like yours although it is likely putting out slightly more due to the Pectel mapping.
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
The superchargers are belt driven so could be mounted on the injector side, away from the tank. There is a similar unit to the one CalScot has used that is offered by Turbo Technics. http://www.turbotechnics.com/docs/cars/mgf.htm
The one pictured on their web site is mounted on the tank/exhaust side of the engine but I am sure it could be relocated to where there is more room.
This next picture also shows a K20 with a turbo but mounted higher on the exhaust side so it would not be as close to the tank as the lower mounted version.
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
The superchargers are belt driven so could be mounted on the injector side, away from the tank. There is a similar unit to the one CalScot has used that is offered by Turbo Technics. http://www.turbotechnics.com/docs/cars/mgf.htm
The one pictured on their web site is mounted on the tank/exhaust side of the engine but I am sure it could be relocated to where there is more room.
This next picture also shows a K20 with a turbo but mounted higher on the exhaust side so it would not be as close to the tank as the lower mounted version.
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Last edited by wisp on Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
I found this, which may come in handy for seeking parts, it's a list of what K-series engines are/were available, what model of car they are in and the factory power they produce.
Engine size Power BHP Found in
1.1 8v 60Metro's & Rover 100s
1.1 16v 75Rover 25
1.4 8v 75Metro, Rover 100, 200, 400, 25
1.4 16v SPi 95Metro, Rover 200, 400
1.4 16v MPi103Metro, Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR.
1.6 16v115Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR, ZS, F, TF, Coupe "other track car" 7
1.8 16v118Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR, ZS, F, TF
1.8 16v135MGF, TF, Lotus Elise
1.8 16v VVC143Rover 200, Coupe, MGF, Lotus Elise,
1.8 16v Turbo154Rover 75, MG ZT
1.8 16v VVC158Rover 200, MG F, TF, ZR Lotus Elise,
1.8 16v VHPD190Lotus Elise, Exige
Quite a few of the other forums that discuss K-series engines mention the packages from Turbo Technics who also make this Geotec centrifugal supercharger.
[img width=276 height=265]http://www.turbotechnics.com/docs/cars/ ... ger%20.JPG[/img]
TT also recommend Emerald for ECUs ( http://www.emeraldm3d.com/ ) who apparently have quite a library of maps for K-series engines.
This link is a handy explanation of EMS -> Basics of engine management
Engine size Power BHP Found in
1.1 8v 60Metro's & Rover 100s
1.1 16v 75Rover 25
1.4 8v 75Metro, Rover 100, 200, 400, 25
1.4 16v SPi 95Metro, Rover 200, 400
1.4 16v MPi103Metro, Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR.
1.6 16v115Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR, ZS, F, TF, Coupe "other track car" 7
1.8 16v118Rover 200, 400, 25, 45, MG ZR, ZS, F, TF
1.8 16v135MGF, TF, Lotus Elise
1.8 16v VVC143Rover 200, Coupe, MGF, Lotus Elise,
1.8 16v Turbo154Rover 75, MG ZT
1.8 16v VVC158Rover 200, MG F, TF, ZR Lotus Elise,
1.8 16v VHPD190Lotus Elise, Exige
Quite a few of the other forums that discuss K-series engines mention the packages from Turbo Technics who also make this Geotec centrifugal supercharger.
[img width=276 height=265]http://www.turbotechnics.com/docs/cars/ ... ger%20.JPG[/img]
TT also recommend Emerald for ECUs ( http://www.emeraldm3d.com/ ) who apparently have quite a library of maps for K-series engines.
This link is a handy explanation of EMS -> Basics of engine management
Last edited by wisp on Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
Currently most of the way through installing the new inlet manifold (from VVC engine)
Removal of the old one was fairly simple with reasonable access from the back of the car, the new one fits with space for the custom oil filler on my car (was worried about that). Bit of coolant and fuel on the garage floor but that was to be expected.
The reason I have not fully re-assemebled it is the VVC manifold is held on to the block by 7 bolts not the 5 of the standard manifold, new bolts will arrive Wednesday.
Will take a picture of the finished job but none during as I don't want to get oil all over my camera !
Ben
Removal of the old one was fairly simple with reasonable access from the back of the car, the new one fits with space for the custom oil filler on my car (was worried about that). Bit of coolant and fuel on the garage floor but that was to be expected.
The reason I have not fully re-assemebled it is the VVC manifold is held on to the block by 7 bolts not the 5 of the standard manifold, new bolts will arrive Wednesday.
Will take a picture of the finished job but none during as I don't want to get oil all over my camera !
Ben
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="benyeats"]
Currently most of the way through installing the new inlet manifold (from VVC engine)
[/quote]
What advantage will the VVC engine inlet manifold give without the VVC cam and valves?
Currently most of the way through installing the new inlet manifold (from VVC engine)
[/quote]
What advantage will the VVC engine inlet manifold give without the VVC cam and valves?
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NathanE
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="wisp"]
[quote="benyeats"]
Currently most of the way through installing the new inlet manifold (from VVC engine)
[/quote]
What advantage will the VVC engine inlet manifold give without the VVC cam and valves?
[/quote]
Essentially it is bigger so is better at mixing the fuel and air, to be honest I did it as a bit of a project and am not 100% sure what the benefit will be, possibly the injectors are bigger as well.
[quote="Mr.Toad"]
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
[/quote]
Driving backwards I think as the gearbox and driveshafts would also be reversed. Other problems would be gear linkage, radiator connection, ECU connections and a load of other stuff, not as modular as you may think, however iirc the engine mounts are simetrical so the physical mounting would be easy !
Ben
[quote="benyeats"]
Currently most of the way through installing the new inlet manifold (from VVC engine)
[/quote]
What advantage will the VVC engine inlet manifold give without the VVC cam and valves?
[/quote]
Essentially it is bigger so is better at mixing the fuel and air, to be honest I did it as a bit of a project and am not 100% sure what the benefit will be, possibly the injectors are bigger as well.
[quote="Mr.Toad"]
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
[/quote]
Driving backwards I think as the gearbox and driveshafts would also be reversed. Other problems would be gear linkage, radiator connection, ECU connections and a load of other stuff, not as modular as you may think, however iirc the engine mounts are simetrical so the physical mounting would be easy !
Ben
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NathanE
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
Although presumably it would not be impossible to fit a reversing gear into the final drive system?
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wisp
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="Mr.Toad"]
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
[/quote]
The easier solution would be to bring the outlet from the exhaust manifold upwards and have the turbo beside the head as shown in the second picture of the Exige motor. You would still need a heat shield as well.
[quote="benyeats"]
The picture you show is a K-turbo, had not thought about the turbo being near the fuel tank and agree it is not an ideal placement, but wouldn't a supercharger go in a similar spot ?
Ben
[/quote]
Could you reverse the engine so that the exaust is at the rear of the car like the Mk2? I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not really aware of what it would entail.
[/quote]
The easier solution would be to bring the outlet from the exhaust manifold upwards and have the turbo beside the head as shown in the second picture of the Exige motor. You would still need a heat shield as well.
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
[quote="Mr.Toad"]
Although presumably it would not be impossible to fit a reversing gear into the final drive system?
[/quote]
Funnily enough a gearbox rebuild is my next job, picking up the 'new' box on the 14th
Ben
Although presumably it would not be impossible to fit a reversing gear into the final drive system?
[/quote]
Funnily enough a gearbox rebuild is my next job, picking up the 'new' box on the 14th
Ben
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benyeats
Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread
New manifold fitted. Test fired engine but it won't idle, sounds find at high revs so assume it is firing on 4 but won't do low revs.
Will sort it over the weekend I expect
Pictures to follow.
Ben
Will sort it over the weekend I expect
Pictures to follow.
Ben
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