Help required.

[Dee]

Hi Everyone

I joined ages ago but no Atom, however iv seen a couple and wanted people's opinion on manual versus sequential as there are a couple for sale and I'm considering which way to go. Has anyone got experience of driving both, types of gearbox on both road and track.

Hopefully I will be able to contribute more to the forum and get involved with events and trackdays once I have the car.

Cheers

Dee

[John Scherrer]

Hello Dee and welcome to the forum !

I personally have no experience of driving the sequential gearbox but there are quite a few on here who have and should be able to give you some advice and guidance.

Are you thinking of Atom 3/3.5 or Atom 4 (or Atom 4R ) as the sequential gearboxes are quite different I believe?

[Dee]

Hi John

There are two available both have great specs, one is manual and the other sequential. 10k difference in price.

Cheers
Dee

[plip1953]

It's worth remembering that the sequential box is proper motorsport gearbox characterised by a barrel selector mechanism and "dog" gears (ie no synchromesh). Perfect for the track, but conventional wisdom would suggest that they are really hard work if the car is predominantly used on the road.

However, with the Atom 4 (I cannot comment about earlier models) conventional wisdom has pretty much been thrown out of the window because some very clever person or persons has managed to harness modern electronic control mechanisms and ecu mapping techniques to "tame the beast".

The essence of a proper motorsport sequential gearbox is that it provides the ability (on upshifts) to "flatshift". This means that there's no need to use the clutch and neither is there any need to take your foot off the throttle. Not only is this less work for driver, but (especially on a turbo car) it helps to maintain power delivery from the engine.

If you ask anyone who's experienced flatshift gear changes they will almost certainly answer with a smile on their face and say it's so much more satisfying than it could possibly be with a conventional manual. But it's worth noting here that it's not especially different to changes in modern autos and even less so compared with the latest twin clutch systems.

But the really clever bit that Ariel have done is to produce a system with a really good downshift system. Even on cars with good synchromesh a "proper" driver will heel and toe as part of each downshift. This is done such that engine revs are increased in readiness for the next lower gear ratio to produce a smoother shift and reduce wear and tear on the synchros. But such downshifts also need to be accompanied by the depression of the clutch. And it all needs to be time correctly and involve coordination between both feet and the gearshift hand.

With the Atom's sequential, downshifts are almost a mirror image of upshifts - at least insofar as there should be no need to use the clutch nor heel and toe. The way this is achieved involves more electronic wizardry. The first part of the process is to release pressure between the dogs, otherwise the current gear will not disengage. The current gear is then deselected (essentially putting the gearbox into neutral) and the next thing is for the throttle to be "blipped" ie to mimic the heel and toe action. And this is then followed very soon after by engagement of the dogs for the next gear. Whilst this might seem a relatively simple process, in practice it is quite often the case in motorsport where drivers are still required to use the clutch on downshifts and manually blip the throttle - but far less so than, say, five or ten years ago.

[Dee]

Hi

Thanks for your detailed reply, it helped a lot. I managed to test drive an Atom 4 with a sequential box yesterday, the upshifts were great but I managed to stall the car on approaches to roundabouts a few times. I put this down to user error and it being my first time in an Atom, let alone one with a sequential box. I spoke to Matt at the factory and he explained that it was common for the car to stall if shifting down from 6th to 1st. I'm confused which way to go now. I'm sure with some practise i could improve using the box but concerned I may just stall it on regular road use. The plan for the car is weekend driving to country pubs, driving holidays and trackdays.

Cheers
Dee

[speedmachine]

Hi

Thanks for your detailed reply, it helped a lot. I managed to test drive an Atom 4 with a sequential box yesterday, the upshifts were great but I managed to stall the car on approaches to roundabouts a few times. I put this down to user error and it being my first time in an Atom, let alone one with a sequential box. I spoke to Matt at the factory and he explained that it was common for the car to stall if shifting down from 6th to 1st. I'm confused which way to go now. I'm sure with some practise i could improve using the box but concerned I may just stall it on regular road use. The plan for the car is weekend driving to country pubs, driving holidays and trackdays.

Cheers
Dee

The stalling is bad mapping for idle control, there is a software update which takes the idle control from 6 to 13 miles an hour.

You’ve let it stall because you depressed the clutch too early. Either you get used to this or the factory raises the idle control mileage a bit further.

I think its the same on manual

[Dee]

Thanks for the reply and information on the software, so I guess with a bit of practise and the software update i guess the sequential should be ok for the road.

Cheers
Dee

[Peter255]

Remember the sequential is stated by Ariel as "Track Use Only - No warranty".
It is not made for road use and servicing sequential for road use might be problematic and costly.
We don't know how the clutches and gears will last yet on the sequential 4s.
They are not smooth so would likely annoy in "stop start" traffic.
IMO if your car is predominantly a road car its a bad compromise. But its personal choice.
Remember the Honda H pattern is a joy in the 4.

Obviously for track only weapons there is no question if you can afford the additional cost.

Enjoy your car either way.

[Dee]

Thanks Peter, I like the idea of a paddle shift box but I would like a smooth ride also on the road. It could be a costly mistake either way. I guess I need to drive the manual and then decide. I put the stalling down to me being a total novice.

Cheers
Dee

[autobackup]

Having had a very short play with a sequential Atom on the road I also stalled it once or twice until the owner told me to use the paddle and clutch as if I were driving a manual gearbox car which solved the problem - but I would wholeheartedly agree with Peter255' opinion that for road use the sequential is reasonably difficult to use as intended for clutchless flat shifting which in traffic is often not possible - I imagine that it would be brilliant on track but realistically not so brilliant on the road for extended periods stuck in traffic!

However I must say that for the short time I drove it it was great fun!!

[plip1953]

Remember the sequential is stated by Ariel as "Track Use Only - No warranty".
It is not made for road use and servicing sequential for road use might be problematic and costly.
We don't know how the clutches and gears will last yet on the sequential 4s.
They are not smooth so would likely annoy in "stop start" traffic.
IMO if your car is predominantly a road car its a bad compromise. But its personal choice.
Remember the Honda H pattern is a joy in the 4.

Obviously for track only weapons there is no question if you can afford the additional cost.

Enjoy your car either way.

Ariel don't offer a formal warranty on any part of the car, although I think in the case of a broken gearbox there would neither be much chance of a goodwill fix. Nevertheless it must be supplied "fit for purpose".

There are no internal clutches associated with this kind of gearbox.

There's little doubt that this kind of gearbox is far less at home when the car is being used in traffic, but this is when you will most likely need to develop making use of the clutch when shifting.

In general, sequential boxes much prefer the kind of driving that's normally associated with being on the track, but the quality of the mapping for the Atom 4 application really does seem to make it a viable option for road use too.

[Dee]

Thanks everyone for all your comments and valuable input. Part of me thinks I have learn to use the clutch and get to grips with the sequential box for road and the other is saying get a manual. I guess doing more track days would push towards a sequential box and living with it on the road.

Cheers
Dee

[Sad]

I have a 3RS (which is 425bhp)…. I changed from Honda 6sp to Quaife sequential. I drive on the road and heavily track.

IF you track your yet-to-be-purchased Atom, then you WILL eat/kill transmissions. Starting with 4th gear…. And the shrapnel takes out the rest.

In the Honda enthusiast community these are referred to as "glass" because they break so readily.

Go to the main Ariel.Club on Facebook. Search “Atom 4th gear" and you see more carnage than you’d care to.

Here’s my first 6sp failure:

[plip1953]

Is it possible/likely that the manual box in the 4 is any different/stronger than was used in the 3?

[K20A2]

I could not answer that from knowledge, but the Civic Turbo K20 engine (Atom 4) has about twice the tourque of the Civic NA K20 engine (Atom 2, 3, 3.5) so I would be surprised if it was not...