Brake honesty

[Jammer]

Ok,,, Now I'm not generally the type to go cheap on anything.. I understand the common need to do suspension and braking before power adding..that said, I find it hard to believe the standard sport wilwood brakes, with race pads, wont stop a 1300 pound  mass rather quickly... is there something I am missing. The track  and race brakes are a fairly substantial cost upgrade, and I am willing, if they make a noteable difference.  I know you cant have too much brake, but if the sport package is enough, than I am happy with that.

Any input is greatly appreciated...
I just recently upgraded from the 230 to the 300, so I figured I had better revisit this.

[silversurfer]

I've got the sport Wilwoods and I must say that I was blown away when I first got the car by the LACK of stopping power. Well duh, I hadn't bed them in yet. Now, I've got even wear throughout the rotor and it has improved greatly but I may still consider the race upgrade. You get going so fast in this car so quick (combined with the big feet and small pedal issue) that the sport brakes may not quite cut it for me. I suppose we'll see soon enough..my first track day is coming up in two weeks.

[Jammer]

[quote="silversurfer"]
I've got the sport Wilwoods and I must say that I was blown away when I first got the car by the LACK of stopping power. Well duh, I hadn't bed them in yet. Now, I've got even wear throughout the rotor and it has improved greatly but I may still consider the race upgrade. You get going so fast in this car so quick (combined with the big feet and small pedal issue) that the sport brakes may not quite cut it for me. I suppose we'll see soon enough..my first track day is coming up in two weeks.
[/quote]
Please please please let me know how the track day goes.... I still have a fair amount of time to upgrade.

[Myerfire48]

Aww Jammer... It wasn't so long ago that you were sooo on the fence.  Now look at you, all ordered up and counting days.  Im starting to feel like a forum vet now, one of the 'lucky ones' about to take delivery (5 more weeks) I went with the race package.  I like brakes, most of my passing occurs under braking and I want all I can get.  I was considering downgrading the shocks, and I think I may drop the wings (for now) but I def. want all the brake I can get.  and the 300?  Right out of the gate?  What will you have to look forward to?  You may learn to drive this car faster with less motor at first..... the 300 is going to be a real handful... then again you could be one hell of a driver, just my .02

[07Atom]

I'm the same way, Myer... Brakes go right after suspension for me. 

[Bruce Fielding]

Race brakes are dreadful...

...at least until they get warm and are used hard, then they are brilliant.

The point is the car weighs so little that the more stopping power you give it, the more amazing the stopping distance - it's that that usually frightens passengers, you can hear them start to whimper as you're approaching a corner at full speed, only to brake at the last minute and make it around the bend easily.

However, race brakes don't work well at all when they're cold - which can catch you out at first. They are also unassisted, so you need to push - hard - to make them work.

[07Atom]

All the brakes are unassisted though... and isn't the temperature at which they operate best really governed by the compound the pads are made out of?

[Driver]

I say go for whatever gets you the absolute largest rotor available. As they are unassisted pedal feel becomes much more important as you try to stay just out of lockup and modulate your efforts under hard braking. If you are not getting enough heat into them, then go to a softer pad that heats up quicker or even go to a less vented wheel that actually would help retain heat better. I think it's quite possible the top 2-3 brake calipers are equally adept at their jobs, the rotor size is where I'd place the biggest differences. Then again, what do I know.

[Bruce Fielding]

Preface: I know bog all about brakes...

...however, in a nutshell, logic would seem to suggest that if heat=energy, then you're more likely to get brake fade with brakes that heat up faster. So it depends if you're doing trackdays or road work. Because you use the brakes so much more on track, you can't afford any fade. On the road, there's sufficient recovery time for that not to matter.

[AtomFun]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
I know bog all about brakes...
[/quote]

Such an eloquent phrase - I love it

[1965Cobra427]

I ordered my 230 with the Sport brake package and have found it very well matched to my ES-100 tires. Great on the street, no complaints. On the track however, the ES-100's leave something to be desired. The brakes are completely up to the level of traction, but feel like they are near their limit just about when the tires are. After a little personal consultation with Craig I have ordered a second set of wheels and slicks along with the Track brake package. Craig, like Bruce felt that the full race package was not the best setup for the amount of street use that my car will get. I will be able to give a back-to-back comparison in a few weeks.

[DarthChicken]

Ah, something I know about!

Stopping distance/fade is a function of a few different things.  Brake compound is huge - as some of you have pointed out, you get a hard compound on the street, and you might as well be putting your feet out to stop the car (suddenly an image of Fred Flintstone driving an Atom comes to mind).  For the streets, you need a softer compound, regardless of the brake manufacture - ie if you use a hard compound in the wildwood or the alcon, you're going to be disappointed as you plow into a SUV.

Use a soft compound on the track, and one of two things will happen (probably both).  #1, you'll overheat your brakes after a few healthy stops.  Even if you have huge brakes, you're more likely to overheat, because the softer compounds are trying to work outside their efficiency range.  The other thing that happens, is you wear through the pads VERY fast.  I've gone through a set of Wilwood "D" compound pads at the local track in ONE 15 minute session!  I got lazy, figured "oh, their wilwoods, they'll be fine" and smoked up $75 real quick.  I've also seen folks wear through them so quickly the pad goes away, and the pad backing fuses to the caliper pistons, pulling the pistons out of the caliper, dropping fluid on to the rotor, and have a minor fire situation on your hands.

Using the harder compounds, the wilwoods perform "ok" on the track in heavier cars.  The are small calipers though, and they do overheat (at least on a 3300lb car).  Get as much rotor as you can at that point, and do everything you can do get air to the calipers (to the point of running hoses from the front of the car directly pointed at the calipers)  They are also not as rigid as the alcons, so the pedal feel is not quite as good (they'll actually bend a bit under hard braking).  I've heard Wilwood redesigned the dynolites a few years ago, but the pair I had was not very impressive.  I currently run stoptechs on my car, and I've never had them fade.  I have a street compound I run, and when I do track days, I switch out the pads at the track (which is messy, not something you want to do at the end of the day before going home, but if you don't you WILL plow into the car in front of you on the road).  Sure, their are pads that allow "ok" braking on the street, and "ok" braking at the track... but as long as you have probably the fastest, best track day car ever designed, why would you put something "ok" on it?

The next thing that affects braking is tires.  Put a set of street tires on a heavy car, and the tires will overheat quicker than the brakes will.  What feels like brake fade is actually tire fade (which I started to experience after I upgraded brakes!).  Conversely, put a set of race rubber on the car, and suddenly the brakes are more likely to overheat, because the tires aren't sliding around anymore, and you can use all that braking power available to you.

Fluids - get something with a high dry boiling point.  Change the fluid often.  I prefer valvoline synthetic - it has a dry boiling point of 575 degrees, and is cheap enough that you can bleed brakes between sessions if you so desire.  There are fluids that have a higher boiling point, and if you can afford them great, but at the very least flush the system before and after every track day (before to remove the moisture that brake fluid absorbs out of the air, and after because you may boil fluid which breaks it down).

IMO - spend as much money as you can on brakes.  You HAVE to run the right compound for the situation.  Run the right tire as well.  Warm up the tires and brakes on the first lap at the track, don't go full out or you'll either slide off the track, or just plow into the car in front of you.  I'll be ordering a seperate set of tires/wheels for the track, some sticky victoracers.  One of the questions I'll be asking Craig on my trip down in a few weeks is what pad the put on the alcons at the factory, so I can immediately go buy whichever is needed. 

[Bruce Fielding]

So what would you suggest for the road, but with the odd trackday, rather than a full time race car?

Also, You should bear in mind that I once ran one set of pads for a year and a half including lots of trackdays on an Atom - without wearing them out, and without driving like my granny... The brakes don't do anything like as much work on a 1200lb car as people are probbaly used to!

[Bottoz]

DarthChicken - Please do find out what Pads they put on. Also, what brake fluid. (I like ATE Super Blue) 

[Myerfire48]

I'd be interested in that pad info as well./..

Bruce.. what brakes are you running?  Are the UK spec setups different from the US spec offerings?  One of trhe attractive features of the Atom is the longevity to expendables as I intend to flog this car on the track moreso than street use.