[quote="FutureAtom"]
Are many of the options very overpriced?
I hope I don't get flamed bad here, but in my opinion buying a new Ariel Atom is overpriced for what it is. I mean, it is a track only car. To get the options that you really need for this car you are looking at between 65K to 70K. They really hit you up for the options. I don't really know what is involved in building one of these, so I can be totally wrong here. But it looks like I will be leaning towards a Used ariel atom.
I think this car NEW should be almost maxed with options for around 50K-55K. To better prove my point and obviously what many other buyers think, the last maxed out ariel atom 2 on ebay only bid up to 41K. It seems obvious that buyers just do not see the high value in these cars.
I think that TMI will have to also lower the price of the options they offer, not just drop the base price of the car. Again, this is my opinion and I can be wrong here as I do not know what is involved.
[/quote]
Hi, FutureAtom:
Well, you have to consider the market.
First, look at that spoiler on the ebay link. It mounts on the G35 and the 350Z. According to the internet (it is, therefore, true), these are the production numbers for the 350Z over a three-year span:
2002 – 13,253
2003 – 36,728
2004 – 30,690
Nissan continued to make this car for another four years, until 2008. Just in terms of 350Zs, the people that designed that ebay spoiler have, easily, more than 100,000 potential customers, probably more than 200,000 if you count the G35 crowd, too.
In North America, I don't believe there are more than 200 Atoms and not much more than 1,500 on the planet. So you're dealing with a fantastically small market size and the R&D costs for a product (like a wing) don't usually scale downwards just because the market is tiny. And, I'd imagine, customer expectations for the finished product here are higher than for the mass-market, which puts upward pressure on the finish quality. Then you've got to look at the people selling these small-market accessories. They have overhead and, simply, they have to make a living selling a tiny number of high-end parts to a small, finicky audience. Translation, it's expensive, all of it.
Now, if you're really handy, with access to machining tools, CF fabrication supplies, etc., you can do it, but honestly add up the time it takes for your R&D and fabrication on an hourly basis, plus the cost of the machines and supplies, factor in the reject ratio and wastage, then try to get, at best, 30 owners to buy your product.
About the price of the car in general, you do realize it's a hand-built, custom vehicle, right? No robots, no sophisticated supply-chain management, no assembly line. On either side of the ocean, it's basically a few guys in a shed (nice sheds) making one of the craziest high-performance vehicles available today. The fact that it even exists is amazing and the market for it is fantastically small because it demands sacrifice. So again, it becomes more expensive.
Certainly on paper it may not look like it tallys, and from a distance it's easy to shoot holes in the argument for Atom pricing. "I could weld that in my backyard", "If you add up all the parts, it doesn't come close to what they're asking", "It's insanely overpriced for what you get."
Reading your posts, I can't tell if you've driven an Atom or been a passenger in one. If neither are the case, you should really try to do so before making the value/price judgement. I can't imagine any vehicle matching the psychotic mainline adrenaline hit that an Atom does for anything near the price, whether the Atom is new or used.
These are miraculous, thrilling little machines and I'd think most here would say they're worth every single cold hard penny.
Buying New vs Used? help
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="FutureAtom"]
6.5K for a carbon fiber spoiler has to be the biggest ripoff option I have ever seen.[/quote]
I also had an issue with the justification of cost on these, but consider the audience. I mean, what type of loon buys a car like this?
But a reminder - in a free market economy (supply and demand), price is influenced more by the buyer than the seller. There are other options - I found a local shop that I worked with to make the mounts using high-quality aluminum wings for less than a third of the cost. Thread on what I did is here. Part of the reason that I went this route was because I just couldn't justify the cost of the wings when they add up to 10% of the cost of the car.
And they are wings, not spoilers. They serve different functions.
[quote="FutureAtom"]
I mean you can buy after market carbon fiber spoilers for $200 dollars on ebay,
[/quote]
I investigated and considered what was available on eBay at great length. Most of them are for appearance only and virtually none of them provide downforce and drag numbers vs. angle to show that they have any appreciable affect. Decided not to buy any off eBay, would have been sheer luck if any of them ended up providing any benefit.
[quote="FutureAtom"]
I hope I don't get flamed bad here, but in my opinion buying a new Ariel Atom is overpriced for what it is. I mean, it is a track only car.[/quote]
If a person looks at it solely as a track car, they're missing out on a lot. I've got over 14k miles on mine and have done four 2300+ mile cross-country trips (even got in Hot Rod Magazine several times for it, search the forum here if you want details).
But back to the original question brought up in this thread...
When I ordered my Atom, none were available used. Probably had something to do with the fact that you could get into one in the upper 30s/lower 40s and they were considerably less costly new than they are today. Less buyers with remorse at that price, and a better economy at the time too (3 years ago). If any had been available used, I would have likely pursued any opportunity. Even if the price of used vs. new was very close, the benefit of someone who had already sucessfully registered the vehicle would have been appreciated. Add in the fact that there would also be no wait time and the car's bugs would have likely been worked out, it makes it worthy of serious consideration.
As for concern over possible abuse by a prior owner when buying used... Abuse to this car is when a driver keeps it in the garage afraid of getting it dirty and only drives it on the street. This car was engineered and built to be tracked. Someone who tracks the vehicle is likely to give a very close inspection before and after every track session. I know I do - virtually every part on it, and that makes it better maintained and less likely to develop problems due to inattention or neglect. I would not hesitate to buy a tracked car if I have confidence that the owner maintained it properly.
6.5K for a carbon fiber spoiler has to be the biggest ripoff option I have ever seen.[/quote]
I also had an issue with the justification of cost on these, but consider the audience. I mean, what type of loon buys a car like this?
But a reminder - in a free market economy (supply and demand), price is influenced more by the buyer than the seller. There are other options - I found a local shop that I worked with to make the mounts using high-quality aluminum wings for less than a third of the cost. Thread on what I did is here. Part of the reason that I went this route was because I just couldn't justify the cost of the wings when they add up to 10% of the cost of the car.And they are wings, not spoilers. They serve different functions.
[quote="FutureAtom"]
I mean you can buy after market carbon fiber spoilers for $200 dollars on ebay,
[/quote]
I investigated and considered what was available on eBay at great length. Most of them are for appearance only and virtually none of them provide downforce and drag numbers vs. angle to show that they have any appreciable affect. Decided not to buy any off eBay, would have been sheer luck if any of them ended up providing any benefit.
[quote="FutureAtom"]
I hope I don't get flamed bad here, but in my opinion buying a new Ariel Atom is overpriced for what it is. I mean, it is a track only car.[/quote]
If a person looks at it solely as a track car, they're missing out on a lot. I've got over 14k miles on mine and have done four 2300+ mile cross-country trips (even got in Hot Rod Magazine several times for it, search the forum here if you want details).
But back to the original question brought up in this thread...
When I ordered my Atom, none were available used. Probably had something to do with the fact that you could get into one in the upper 30s/lower 40s and they were considerably less costly new than they are today. Less buyers with remorse at that price, and a better economy at the time too (3 years ago). If any had been available used, I would have likely pursued any opportunity. Even if the price of used vs. new was very close, the benefit of someone who had already sucessfully registered the vehicle would have been appreciated. Add in the fact that there would also be no wait time and the car's bugs would have likely been worked out, it makes it worthy of serious consideration.
As for concern over possible abuse by a prior owner when buying used... Abuse to this car is when a driver keeps it in the garage afraid of getting it dirty and only drives it on the street. This car was engineered and built to be tracked. Someone who tracks the vehicle is likely to give a very close inspection before and after every track session. I know I do - virtually every part on it, and that makes it better maintained and less likely to develop problems due to inattention or neglect. I would not hesitate to buy a tracked car if I have confidence that the owner maintained it properly.
300hp Ecotec Atom that is driven. Visit my website.-
FutureAtom
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
Jeez, it is amazing to hear that these cars sold for 30/40K when they first came out here in the US. Why has the price increased so much? Is it totally because of selling the name?
-
Terry Kennedy
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Jeez, it is amazing to hear that these cars sold for 30/40K when they first came out here in the US. Why has the price increased so much? Is it totally because of selling the name?
[/quote]
Not entirely. When Brammo started, they had no idea how much their total cost to get an Atom out the door was. They presumably started with their parts cost, added their labor cost, and added a markup on top of that. When they discovered their true cost on things, they raised their prices so they wouldn't lose money on each Atom they built.
As an example, Brammo's initial price for a custom color chassis or body panels was $540. I had the first car with custom colors. For both, I sent Brammo samples and they processed and matched them, then sent test pieces to me for approval. For the chassis, they sent it out to be powdercoated. When it came back, they built my car. Toward the end, they noticed I ordered the roll bar. They sent a bare rollbar out to be powdercoated. The powdercoater called and said "you said this was a one-off - we didn't save the formula", so the whole Atom had to go to the powdercoater to get the color matched (it was a pearlized metallic grey with purple flecks, not something that could be matched remotely).
For the body panels, instead of Brammo calling their composites facility and saying "send up a set of yellow panels in the next batch", it was "Are Kennedy's panels done yet? We need them because they're holding up the build!" (I have matched fenders as well).
Anyway, Brammo kept raising their prices as they discovered the true cost of things. Some things they never figured out (they apparently charged me about 1/3 of the actual cost for a pair of 4-pot Alcons just before they shut down Atom operations).
The constant price increases made new customers unhappy - it is annoying to budget for a car and then discover the price went up substantially. Particularly on a car like the Atom, which most lenders won't finance.
When TMI took over, they were apparently quite conservative and priced accordingly. My Atom which cost $65K from Brammo has about $15K of later Brammo add-ons (carbon fiber parts, etc.). When I initially priced it at TMI, it came out at $119K. As I said at the time, "The Atom is a great car, but when you get past $100K there are a lot of great cars to choose from".
Once TMI got a better idea of their costs, they announced a sale and a subsequent price decrease. This also made customers unhappy - some existing customers felt this de-valued their cars.
I haven't seen any recent pricing from TMI (the last "unofficial price list" I have is a year old). I would hope that US pricing is now somewhat consistent with UK pricing (taking into consideration fluctuating exchange rates). As an example, the old TMI price list I have quotes a custom color chassis at $1450 and a sample powdercoat test at $250.
Jeez, it is amazing to hear that these cars sold for 30/40K when they first came out here in the US. Why has the price increased so much? Is it totally because of selling the name?
[/quote]
Not entirely. When Brammo started, they had no idea how much their total cost to get an Atom out the door was. They presumably started with their parts cost, added their labor cost, and added a markup on top of that. When they discovered their true cost on things, they raised their prices so they wouldn't lose money on each Atom they built.
As an example, Brammo's initial price for a custom color chassis or body panels was $540. I had the first car with custom colors. For both, I sent Brammo samples and they processed and matched them, then sent test pieces to me for approval. For the chassis, they sent it out to be powdercoated. When it came back, they built my car. Toward the end, they noticed I ordered the roll bar. They sent a bare rollbar out to be powdercoated. The powdercoater called and said "you said this was a one-off - we didn't save the formula", so the whole Atom had to go to the powdercoater to get the color matched (it was a pearlized metallic grey with purple flecks, not something that could be matched remotely).
For the body panels, instead of Brammo calling their composites facility and saying "send up a set of yellow panels in the next batch", it was "Are Kennedy's panels done yet? We need them because they're holding up the build!" (I have matched fenders as well).
Anyway, Brammo kept raising their prices as they discovered the true cost of things. Some things they never figured out (they apparently charged me about 1/3 of the actual cost for a pair of 4-pot Alcons just before they shut down Atom operations).
The constant price increases made new customers unhappy - it is annoying to budget for a car and then discover the price went up substantially. Particularly on a car like the Atom, which most lenders won't finance.
When TMI took over, they were apparently quite conservative and priced accordingly. My Atom which cost $65K from Brammo has about $15K of later Brammo add-ons (carbon fiber parts, etc.). When I initially priced it at TMI, it came out at $119K. As I said at the time, "The Atom is a great car, but when you get past $100K there are a lot of great cars to choose from".
Once TMI got a better idea of their costs, they announced a sale and a subsequent price decrease. This also made customers unhappy - some existing customers felt this de-valued their cars.
I haven't seen any recent pricing from TMI (the last "unofficial price list" I have is a year old). I would hope that US pricing is now somewhat consistent with UK pricing (taking into consideration fluctuating exchange rates). As an example, the old TMI price list I have quotes a custom color chassis at $1450 and a sample powdercoat test at $250.
Last edited by Terry Kennedy on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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timcking
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
I thought I'd responded to this question, but apparently I screwed up. Anyway, just to share some experience, I considered the same question of buying new vs. used. That was until I checked with my local DMV and found that to register an Atom it would have to have all the documentation associated wtih being a "constructed" vehicle - basically a kit car by their definition. In other words, they required the engine to be sourced and installed by someone other than the supplying car manufacturer. I couldn't find any used Atoms that met that requirement.
Anyone wanting to register an Atom in their State would be advised to do their homework first. Otherwise you might end up with a track car. In my state there's no "going back". If it's not a documented "contructed vehicle" you can't and won't be able to register it.
I also thought I'd done my homework with the emissions requirements prior to my purchase, but I was wrong. After I got it, I found it was totally out of compliance with the OBDII requirement where I live. That was an expensive lesson, but I was able to get it to comply with some help and a new K-Pro ECU. I was lucky that I was able to retrofit the car to meet the requirements.
Anyone wanting to register an Atom in their State would be advised to do their homework first. Otherwise you might end up with a track car. In my state there's no "going back". If it's not a documented "contructed vehicle" you can't and won't be able to register it.
I also thought I'd done my homework with the emissions requirements prior to my purchase, but I was wrong. After I got it, I found it was totally out of compliance with the OBDII requirement where I live. That was an expensive lesson, but I was able to get it to comply with some help and a new K-Pro ECU. I was lucky that I was able to retrofit the car to meet the requirements.
-
WorkingOnIt
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="Terry Kennedy"]
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Jeez, it is amazing to hear that these cars sold for 30/40K when they first came out here in the US. Why has the price increased so much? Is it totally because of selling the name?
[/quote]
Not entirely. When Brammo started, they had no idea how much their total cost to get an Atom out the door was. ...
[/quote]
And also a special deal from GM on the first (I forget how many) engines that was not repeated. I assume there was also a little 'loss leader' consideration in initial pricing, as they were asking customers to take a chance on a car they had only seen on video, from a builder few had heard of before. Perk (and risk) of getting in on the ground floor of something.
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Jeez, it is amazing to hear that these cars sold for 30/40K when they first came out here in the US. Why has the price increased so much? Is it totally because of selling the name?
[/quote]
Not entirely. When Brammo started, they had no idea how much their total cost to get an Atom out the door was. ...
[/quote]
And also a special deal from GM on the first (I forget how many) engines that was not repeated. I assume there was also a little 'loss leader' consideration in initial pricing, as they were asking customers to take a chance on a car they had only seen on video, from a builder few had heard of before. Perk (and risk) of getting in on the ground floor of something.
-
Gage
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
It was possible to order one, but I never heard of an Atom ordered for less then the low 40K mark even in those early Brammo cars. Someone please correct me if you know better.
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Gage
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
Extra post.
Last edited by Gage on Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FutureAtom
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
Can someone tell me if the 2006 Ariel atoms had the option to purchase the roll bar from the factory? I was told that 2006 atoms didn't have this option. Somehow I don't think this is true.
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Can someone tell me if the 2006 Ariel atoms had the option to purchase the roll bar from the factory? I was told that 2006 atoms didn't have this option. Somehow I don't think this is true.
[/quote]
Mine's stated as a 2006 on the MCO/MSO paperwork even though I ordered it in early 2007 and it arrived in June of 2007. The rollbar was an available option at that time.
Can someone tell me if the 2006 Ariel atoms had the option to purchase the roll bar from the factory? I was told that 2006 atoms didn't have this option. Somehow I don't think this is true.
[/quote]
Mine's stated as a 2006 on the MCO/MSO paperwork even though I ordered it in early 2007 and it arrived in June of 2007. The rollbar was an available option at that time.
300hp Ecotec Atom that is driven. Visit my website.-
Heywood-Yablowme
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
Both my '06's came with the Track rollbar as did my '07. I think they were always an option. The Atom does look better without them,(in my opinion) but some tracks require them. Like the windshields,they kinda grow on you... 
(then again,so do warts... 
)
(then again,so do warts... )-
Terry Kennedy
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Can someone tell me if the 2006 Ariel atoms had the option to purchase the roll bar from the factory? I was told that 2006 atoms didn't have this option. Somehow I don't think this is true.[/quote]
Yes. I have one of the very first Brammo Atoms and it has a roll bar (ordered and delivered with the car).
You can tell a Brammo Atom from a TMI/UK one from a distance easily if they have a roll bar - the Brammo ones are flat across the top while the others have a slight kink in the center.
Can someone tell me if the 2006 Ariel atoms had the option to purchase the roll bar from the factory? I was told that 2006 atoms didn't have this option. Somehow I don't think this is true.[/quote]
Yes. I have one of the very first Brammo Atoms and it has a roll bar (ordered and delivered with the car).
You can tell a Brammo Atom from a TMI/UK one from a distance easily if they have a roll bar - the Brammo ones are flat across the top while the others have a slight kink in the center.
-
FutureAtom
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
Does anyone know if you buy a Used atom and want to add one of the atom 3 options, like the windscreen or other options listed if they do that at the atom factory, and if the price is similar to that when buying the atom new?
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Terry Kennedy
Re: Buying New vs Used? help
[quote="FutureAtom"]
Does anyone know if you buy a Used atom and want to add one of the atom 3 options, like the windscreen or other options listed if they do that at the atom factory, and if the price is similar to that when buying the atom new?[/quote]
Many options can be retrofitted. I believe the windscreen is one of them.
Certain options may be more costly or unavailable for retrofit on the Brammo Atom 2's. For example, the intake upgrade piece is no longer available. Other options may take longer to get - for example, TMI has the capability of making the Brammo-style passenger footrest, but if they don't have any already made it might be a while.
I'd suggest calling TMI and asking about the ability to retrofit any options you're interested in. Then you'll know if it is possible, and for how much and how long it will take, and if they need the car or can send you the parts.
Does anyone know if you buy a Used atom and want to add one of the atom 3 options, like the windscreen or other options listed if they do that at the atom factory, and if the price is similar to that when buying the atom new?[/quote]
Many options can be retrofitted. I believe the windscreen is one of them.
Certain options may be more costly or unavailable for retrofit on the Brammo Atom 2's. For example, the intake upgrade piece is no longer available. Other options may take longer to get - for example, TMI has the capability of making the Brammo-style passenger footrest, but if they don't have any already made it might be a while.
I'd suggest calling TMI and asking about the ability to retrofit any options you're interested in. Then you'll know if it is possible, and for how much and how long it will take, and if they need the car or can send you the parts.
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