Atom 4 - Pre Spec/Order Discussion

[GraemeW]

Steve I was thinking likewise, but I have decided to supercharge my NA 3.5 now, after 2 years ownership, and probably also put down a deposit for a 4 for collection in 2 to 3 years time. In that way I will have experienced a 3.5 NA, 3.5 Supercharged and ultimately the 4.

The "finance director" is not yet convinced its a sound business case

[Hedge]

I think the 4 will come alive with more power

Without wishing to sound like a broken record, none of the contributors to this thread have actually been in one yet (other than Henry & I), so it's all conjecture, as a result. It is more than a bit "alive", already. It is unbelievably quick, trust me.

Cheers,
Hedge

[Peter255]

Lets remember everybody this is an internet forum for people to post their views and discuss their opinions on a topic (Atom 4).

Everybody is entitled to an opinion.

LOL

[cvjoint]

Let's just stick to a few factual things here.

Having lived and worked all over the US apart from a few Mid West places the public roads are like glass. Let's stretch this further and say when it's hot in the kind of places people buy Atoms for, it's very hot. So. We have two very considerable advantages from the beginning over the UK, heat, and smooth roads. Now, race cars. It's one thing discussing a race car chassis setup to a road car. Your SRA/Cup car wouldn't see which way my 310 went on the average UK road on the way to the local takeaway, especially if I was hungry. I am sure talent wise, I would have less, but without 4 wheels in contact with the road I don't think any magical dual wishbone setup would overcome a compliant setup that allows things to work over their full range of motion? So, we have two very similar chassis's and two totally different environments, both of them able to perform very well.

You haven't driven a car in San Francisco, have you? It will change your perspective. See Red Bull driving their Formula 1 @ 1:35 in this video:

The route Red Bull picked is pretty smooth, if they went 2 blocks south of that they'd be in front of my house where it's been so broken in the last few years you can hardly go 15 mph. It's also arguably not hot in San Francisco. I've been to many track days at Laguna Seca where it's wet or in the upper 40s F.

Yes, my SRA has a power to weight ratio that would leave it well behind a 310. But wait, isn't that my point? What about the power to weight difference between an Atom 4 and a lighter 350 horse 3.5R?

Damping wise I don't see the difference between 3.5R and 4. You will either equip the car with spring/shock combo good for the track or one good for a bumpy road. Arguably the closest you can get to having both race track damping and road damping is to have magnetic ride control. The latest generation, as equipped on the C7 Z06 was night and day difference between Tour and Race modes. I'm not advocating for this btw, I think adaptive systems, whether they are air bags on my Cayenne or the magnetic shocks on the Z06 kill road feedback. Learning a new track and adapting to road conditions is far easier in the relatively more basic sprung SRA.

I am not sure why the US magazines are so obsessed with skidpans, I guess we just see roundabouts for what they are, a necessary form of traffic control? But seriously, all a skid pan can tell you is actual lateral grip on a broadly regular surface at a constant rate of motion. How many road cars or even road race cars drive like that?

It's a good predictor of how much mechanical grip the car has. It would apply to how fast cars can attack turn 11 at Laguna Seca which is a 90 degree bend, or turn 7 at Sonoma which is a hairpin. I suppose the alternative on the street is a non-banked freeway entrance and effectively every left or right 90 degree turn on a small road. As with all empirical data, its usefulness is how close you match it to a real world scenario. I argue there are many scenarios.

The new car IMO, will be a better 'platform' period. More stable, which means you should be able to push turn in to a point where on a less stable chassis the car would be come less manageable. You mention the S2000, I can't think of a better example of any production car in the last 20 years that works so well on track but so badly on the road, frankly it's an awful unresolved car as it arrives from the factory. Rear damping doesn't match the front and the steering is too slow and lacks feel. I say this as a Honda fan, two DC2 R's (which would both give the S2K a bloody nose), an NSX and an FD2 R. On the road the S2K just kicks off of one bump to another and the rear never settles down, it never gets going lacking any kind of fluidity. That would be ok, you could deal with that if it didn't have an engine and gearbox that just loves to be extended. It was almost as if big H were having a bit of laugh at our expense, perhaps they just didn't like English hedgerows and instead of cutting them thought they could fire their customers S2000's through them to keep them down? Besides, what's an S2000, 1300Kg, more than double the Atom, with a very traditional front engine RWD layout? I haven't driven many Corvettes, the main one being a '72 C3, but again, I just cannot see the relevance. Similar to the S2K the layout is traditional, weight is up again to 1500Kg or so. How are two 'fully optimized double wishbone cars' which stumble out of the cake shop between 2.2 and 2.5 times the weight with engine mass in a totally different place relevant? This is, and can only be a benchmark of the 3.5 and the 4.

My 2000 Honda S2000 can still run with a modern day BRZ/FRS and Miata. I had no problem putting the power down on street or track and it still has loads more power than its contemporaries which I just mentioned. The suspension had loads of travel for the road, perhaps a bit too soft for the track and came with a shock damping curve from Showa that was well ahead of its time. Today it serves as the basis for many unlimited cars in my area, a testament to how well its design has endured. On the road, it appreciated to values that exceed MSRP from nearly 20 years ago. I've never heard anyone complain about its double wishbone setup being not refined enough.

Lastly, you said honed, you obviously mean your own vehicle? Because I can tell you that like for like a similarly powered 7 (let's face it a car designed by early cavemen whilst chasing dinosaurs) will match, and with comparable drivers be able to shade the Atom. It has never been a problem for me, but my friends with beards tell me that at Spa I would get destroyed by them. I think it comes down to the size of your plums quite frankly but there is no denying that the balance in the 3.5 always feels what it is. I improved mine a lot, I would like to think it is one of the better ones with Intrax. The point I am making is that it is possible to improve anything once you have a starting point, I don't think any engineer would say otherwise?

I was a second of the slower Radical at the last event and 4 seconds from the quickest. The other Ariel Atom had aero and 365hp and was running 23 seconds slower than me. I think it's all plums. No other lightweight without aero has ever gotten close to me, be it the Goblin, the Exocet, Caterham, etc. I don't think I could do what I do if the suspension wasn't well sorted. I run 3 degrees or less static camber and no toe and the tires last over 50 heat cycles on the softest slicks wearing very evenly. I take the Zanardi line through the corkscrew and use the berms generally whenever it feels quicker. The suspension geometry is solid. If the Atom is ever less forgiving than other lightweights, we should point to the 37/63 weight distribution and how little weight there is on on front in absolutes. I have no beef with the a-arm design. It's a lamb considering that it has all the ingredients of the old widow-maker 911s at double the power to weight. That's antiquated McPherson in the Porsche vs. modern dual a-arm for you.

I am sure it can, until you reach a corner, or need to stop. Guessing a SVT 150 type truck?

Cayenne GTS, stick, no turbo or turbo s.

I am still confused about the question you are asking, if there is one? We have been told the car is more powerful and more stable. We have been told it has better aero and is more accelerative at higher speeds. It has more powerful brakes, a better dash, more lock. It's 15% stiffer, it crashes better, even from behind they say.

So.

Call me Mr Gullible, but taking into account the above, how is this car not going to be a better road and track car?

Better road car sure. Faster than a 3.5R in stock form? no. Substantial way forward in suspension design? I hope so, but I just don't see given the original was so good. It will be huge bang for the buck considering it's faster than everything up to a 3.5R.

Great read on the article you posted!
Cheers

[anx10us]

Let's just stick to a few factual things here.

Having lived and worked all over the US apart from a few Mid West places the public roads are like glass. Let's stretch this further and say when it's hot in the kind of places people buy Atoms for, it's very hot. So. We have two very considerable advantages from the beginning over the UK, heat, and smooth roads. Now, race cars. It's one thing discussing a race car chassis setup to a road car. Your SRA/Cup car wouldn't see which way my 310 went on the average UK road on the way to the local takeaway, especially if I was hungry. I am sure talent wise, I would have less, but without 4 wheels in contact with the road I don't think any magical dual wishbone setup would overcome a compliant setup that allows things to work over their full range of motion? So, we have two very similar chassis's and two totally different environments, both of them able to perform very well.

You haven't driven a car in San Francisco, have you? It will change your perspective. See Red Bull driving their Formula 1 @ 1:35 in this video:

The route Red Bull picked is pretty smooth, if they went 2 blocks south of that they'd be in front of my house where it's been so broken in the last few years you can hardly go 15 mph. It's also arguably not hot in San Francisco. I've been to many track days at Laguna Seca where it's wet or in the upper 40s F.

Yes, my SRA has a power to weight ratio that would leave it well behind a 310. But wait, isn't that my point? What about the power to weight difference between an Atom 4 and a lighter 350 horse 3.5R?

Damping wise I don't see the difference between 3.5R and 4. You will either equip the car with spring/shock combo good for the track or one good for a bumpy road. Arguably the closest you can get to having both race track damping and road damping is to have magnetic ride control. The latest generation, as equipped on the C7 Z06 was night and day difference between Tour and Race modes. I'm not advocating for this btw, I think adaptive systems, whether they are air bags on my Cayenne or the magnetic shocks on the Z06 kill road feedback. Learning a new track and adapting to road conditions is far easier in the relatively more basic sprung SRA.

I am not sure why the US magazines are so obsessed with skidpans, I guess we just see roundabouts for what they are, a necessary form of traffic control? But seriously, all a skid pan can tell you is actual lateral grip on a broadly regular surface at a constant rate of motion. How many road cars or even road race cars drive like that?

It's a good predictor of how much mechanical grip the car has. It would apply to how fast cars can attack turn 11 at Laguna Seca which is a 90 degree bend, or turn 7 at Sonoma which is a hairpin. I suppose the alternative on the street is a non-banked freeway entrance and effectively every left or right 90 degree turn on a small road. As with all empirical data, its usefulness is how close you match it to a real world scenario. I argue there are many scenarios.

The new car IMO, will be a better 'platform' period. More stable, which means you should be able to push turn in to a point where on a less stable chassis the car would be come less manageable. You mention the S2000, I can't think of a better example of any production car in the last 20 years that works so well on track but so badly on the road, frankly it's an awful unresolved car as it arrives from the factory. Rear damping doesn't match the front and the steering is too slow and lacks feel. I say this as a Honda fan, two DC2 R's (which would both give the S2K a bloody nose), an NSX and an FD2 R. On the road the S2K just kicks off of one bump to another and the rear never settles down, it never gets going lacking any kind of fluidity. That would be ok, you could deal with that if it didn't have an engine and gearbox that just loves to be extended. It was almost as if big H were having a bit of laugh at our expense, perhaps they just didn't like English hedgerows and instead of cutting them thought they could fire their customers S2000's through them to keep them down? Besides, what's an S2000, 1300Kg, more than double the Atom, with a very traditional front engine RWD layout? I haven't driven many Corvettes, the main one being a '72 C3, but again, I just cannot see the relevance. Similar to the S2K the layout is traditional, weight is up again to 1500Kg or so. How are two 'fully optimized double wishbone cars' which stumble out of the cake shop between 2.2 and 2.5 times the weight with engine mass in a totally different place relevant? This is, and can only be a benchmark of the 3.5 and the 4.

My 2000 Honda S2000 can still run with a modern day BRZ/FRS and Miata. I had no problem putting the power down on street or track and it still has loads more power than its contemporaries which I just mentioned. The suspension had loads of travel for the road, perhaps a bit too soft for the track and came with a shock damping curve from Showa that was well ahead of its time. Today it serves as the basis for many unlimited cars in my area, a testament to how well its design has endured. On the road, it appreciated to values that exceed MSRP from nearly 20 years ago. I've never heard anyone complain about its double wishbone setup being not refined enough.

Lastly, you said honed, you obviously mean your own vehicle? Because I can tell you that like for like a similarly powered 7 (let's face it a car designed by early cavemen whilst chasing dinosaurs) will match, and with comparable drivers be able to shade the Atom. It has never been a problem for me, but my friends with beards tell me that at Spa I would get destroyed by them. I think it comes down to the size of your plums quite frankly but there is no denying that the balance in the 3.5 always feels what it is. I improved mine a lot, I would like to think it is one of the better ones with Intrax. The point I am making is that it is possible to improve anything once you have a starting point, I don't think any engineer would say otherwise?

I was a second of the slower Radical at the last event and 4 seconds from the quickest. The other Ariel Atom had aero and 365hp and was running 23 seconds slower than me. I think it's all plums. No other lightweight without aero has ever gotten close to me, be it the Goblin, the Exocet, Caterham, etc. I don't think I could do what I do if the suspension wasn't well sorted. I run 3 degrees or less static camber and no toe and the tires last over 50 heat cycles on the softest slicks wearing very evenly. I take the Zanardi line through the corkscrew and use the berms generally whenever it feels quicker. The suspension geometry is solid. If the Atom is ever less forgiving than other lightweights, we should point to the 37/63 weight distribution and how little weight there is on on front in absolutes. I have no beef with the a-arm design. It's a lamb considering that it has all the ingredients of the old widow-maker 911s at double the power to weight. That's antiquated McPherson in the Porsche vs. modern dual a-arm for you.

I am sure it can, until you reach a corner, or need to stop. Guessing a SVT 150 type truck?

Cayenne GTS, stick, no turbo or turbo s.

I am still confused about the question you are asking, if there is one? We have been told the car is more powerful and more stable. We have been told it has better aero and is more accelerative at higher speeds. It has more powerful brakes, a better dash, more lock. It's 15% stiffer, it crashes better, even from behind they say.

So.

Call me Mr Gullible, but taking into account the above, how is this car not going to be a better road and track car?

Better road car sure. Faster than a 3.5R in stock form? no. Substantial way forward in suspension design? I hope so, but I just don't see given the original was so good. It will be huge bang for the buck considering it's faster than everything up to a 3.5R.

Great read on the article you posted!
Cheers

Time will tell, we need to get Henry Catchpole in one to compare, maybe even do a head to head ? afaik the 3.5R in this video is still in Somerset .. ;-) -

[reg]

driven a car in San Francisco, have you? It will change your perspective.

Yes, and all over the State. Marin is somewhat different to downtown SF.....

Yes, my SRA has a power to weight ratio that would leave it well behind a 310. But wait, isn't that my point? What about the power to weight difference between an Atom 4 and a lighter 350 horse 3.5R?

What about the extra torque, the extra grip, greater compliance.....

Damping wise I don't see the difference between 3.5R and 4. You will either equip the car with spring/shock combo good for the track or one good for a bumpy road.

And a stiffer more stable platform with improved pickup points and geometry will make it better, obviously.

It's a good predictor of how much mechanical grip the car has. It

Before multi channel datalogging maybe, not so much now.

My 2000 Honda S2000 can still run with a modern day BRZ/FRS and Miata. I had no problem putting the power down on street or track and it still has loads more power than its contemporaries I've never heard anyone complain about its double wishbone setup being not refined enough.

It's contemporaries were the Boxster, if you wanted one extreme, to the Elise, if you wanted the other. They both bested it. It's a marmite car with a great powertrain.

I was a second of the slower Radical at the last event and 4 seconds from the quickest. The other Ariel Atom had aero and 365hp and was running 23 seconds slower than me. I think it's all plums.

All irrelevant. Unless you have run this car against the 4 quoting things like this makes no sense. Even more so that at most circuits the average lap time of a Radical is far quicker.

Better road car sure. Faster than a 3.5R in stock form? no. Substantial way forward in suspension design? I hope so, but I just don't see given the original was so good. It will be huge bang for the buck considering it's faster than everything up to a 3.5R.

I am not sure why you dismiss everything that Henry has said, let alone the feedback from the journo and test driver. This is the same factory that designed the car you are talking so highly about.

I think you've got this totally wrong. But we'll see.

[cvjoint]

Time will tell, we need to get Henry Catchpole in one to compare, maybe even do a head to head ? afaik the 3.5R in this video is still in Somerset .. ;-) -

He's likable and a straight talker which is hard to find. I would prefer Jethro Bovingdon or Chris Harris since I'd think they can eek out that extra last bit of performance out of the car on timed laps. Randy Pobst for a Laguna Seca hot lap would be bang on, as those are my proving grounds.

What about the extra torque, the extra grip, greater compliance.....

Let's. The 3.5R will make more power everywhere as used in the top of the powerband. In terms of grip I venture a guess that old Toyos get up to speed faster and have a carcass more suited to light vehicles than the 888R. Compliance already discussed.

How about heat? The Civic Type R is the first Honda to overheat on track, did so at Buttonwillow. I think it's safe to say the Civic heat exchangers are larger by some non-significant amount. I've also been told by Chevy head engineer that the Z06 was built to be driven by a pro until it runs out of gas in 86*F ambient without overheating and I've overheated engine and power steering at less than 10 minutes in cooler temps. So you must excuse my thirst for real data here.

And a stiffer more stable platform with improved pickup points and geometry will make it better, obviously.

Agreed. But how much faster ceteris paribus, a tenth a lap? The outgoing Atom is incredibly stiff and well sorted.

Before multi channel datalogging maybe, not so much now.

Can I see the lateral G plots for the Atom at Laguna Seca, Sonoma, Thunderhill, and Buttonwillow on a record lap before buying it? The technology exists, but it's not readily available public data like the skidpad number. That's where its strength lies. The Atom 5 will come out way before you get sufficient data acquisition to inform yourself on the 4.

Are you confident no Briton believes a skidpad number is useful?

I'm all for datalogging. Someone run the Atom 4 near 10/10 and post the data logs. Heck, if you can do either of the tracks I mentioned I can post mine up to compare.

[reg]

There's little point in debating anything, you'll say black is white and tbh i'd rather take the facts as I have them from the people directly involved in the new car and my own experience with the 3.5.

Another couple of weeks and I'll see for myself

[Trigger]

What I dont understand is the insistence that the 3.5 cannot be bettered - I trust Ariel well enough they wouldnt bring out the 4 until they knew it was superior. Henry has explained all the ways it is - thats good enough for me.

[reg]

Yep. Each to their own I guess

[cvjoint]

If it's faster than a 3.5R on track I'd be shocked but...pleased! If the chassis is a substantial improvement that means I have an opportunity to upgrade down the line. I'll fine tune the HPD race motor I'm working on in the SRA and drop it in the Atom 4.

So bring on the track reviews.

[phil4]

I'm loathed to have a view... but why not

I suspect the Atom 4 is better. After all people who've tried it have said it is. And why would you design a car, and release it, if it isn't.

What I do keep in mind though... is how much better? Henry certainly isn't full of rubbish, and nor a slick haired salesman that'll say anything to get a sale. But he does have a reason to be biased. And that's why I'd rather see how things pan out before I make my mind up how much better.

So my view is that it is. But by how much I don't know.

Strangely the attraction for me aren't whether it's quicker, on road or track, but a better ride, some form of Launch Control and traction control as mentioned and a colour dash are all things that sell it to me.

[Fastlane]

The day I picked up my Atom 3 from the factory, an Atom 4 was taken to the inaugral Watergate Bay Hillclimb http://www.watergatebayhillclimb.co.uk/on the 15th & 16th September and driven by Will Corry, who drove it at the Goodwood FOS I believe. He/it did quite well too, with a best of 26.12, making it one of the fastest cars at the event. Not bad for a bog standard car.

Here is a picture of it:

[reg]

I had heard about the hill climb the other week, considering the only things that got the better of it were fairly well sorted hill climb cars with experienced owners, a very good result. Would have been faster with some skid pan data though

[markwetherall]

I have to admit, after reading everything here I am really glad I am getting the Atom 4. By the sounds of things it will be a much better and safer drive to a circuit, seriously quick round the circuit maybe similar speeds to the 3.5r and will still absolutely put a smile on my face. The majority of people buy an atom due to it being serious fun. I don't want to be the fastest around a race track, I want to have the biggest smile when I come off the race track and so far what I have read from everyone is that will definitely be the case. After 3 years with an atom 3 and doing 20k miles in it, everyone of the upgrades in a 4 will be more than welcome. It sounds like if I do a 1000 mile trip in the car it will be more pleasant than a 3 and will still be faster. What more can we ask for. Sounds like Ariel have done a fantastic job with the new car and have heard what the paying punters have asked for. Now bring on the spring when they finally start building them so I can get mine.

Lets just hope that Ariel can start letting us have a drive in one. Spoke to the factory and cannot get a drive as a passenger let alone to drive one until November at the earliest as the cars are out with the press

Well done to the team at Ariel now please let us get on and drive one especially as some of us have been waiting for 18 months for the Atom 4 to come out and put our money down to make sure we are one of the first to get one.