The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

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Expand view Topic review: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Yorkshire » Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:31 pm

robfitz wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:40 pm Where would you fit a second radiator - are you looking at side pods like a 3.5R?
I have already enquired with the factory re sidepods.
The rear plates for the metal work are obviously pre drilled for Atom 3.5 wishbone centres (as they mount on the end of the wishbone bolts) which is easy to overcome by having a new rear plate laser cut with the correct bolt centre.

However there is another problem with the side pods i am trying to overcome. On the 3.5 Atom the rear chassis had lugs for the wishbones and the bush was in the actual wishbone. So when sidepod metal work slotted on and clamped up the wishbone was still free to move in its normal range of movement.

The Atom 4 has larger mounts (not lugs) with the captive bush actually in the chassis. The wishbone just has lugs which fit on the outside of this bush and are held by the bolt. So if i just fitted the plate and torqued it in place there is a danger the rear wishbones wont move which isn't good for quick lap times!

I'm still thinking of a work round for this as i would like pods on mine to get an additional cooling rad passenger side and more intake cooling drivers side.

Phil , Chris and Paul have done some good work with there cooling mods with more to come and having witnessed there results at Cadwell i'm going to give them a try on my car. Although i believe i may need even more with my tuning mods.

Just to update from my earlier posts i did run my car at Blyton last weekend with the only cooling mod being the "Race Ready Coolant" whilst i can't say it made no difference its hard to say as the day was nearly 30 degrees in the afternoon and i could only run in my map 2 which is about 390bhp. Even this resulted in engine temps of 106 degrees. I did run without my front wing to try that which resulted in cooler results (but i want a front wing) and had same problem with once i caught a slower car and didn't clear straight away cooling system raised temp and then was impossible to cool it back down without stopping.

Hope this helps and with a little more testing i'm hoping a solution will be found for track day use

Cheers Stuart

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by reg » Sat Aug 20, 2022 3:28 pm

Monza wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:39 am Of course but you'll not be able to do 2 consecutive laps because of water coolant temp ....
Definitely would be in conjunction with any cooling mods.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Monza » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:44 pm

Good question, don't know if enought place for horizontal one as on the older Atoms. Of course side pods are a solution but the cost will be much much higher.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by robfitz » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:40 pm

Where would you fit a second radiator - are you looking at side pods like a 3.5R?

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Monza » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:38 pm

Was answering to Reg 😉 i imagine that after your coolant modifications you can do several laps as you wrote, which is a good thing and which confirms my opinion that a second radiator with fan will be easyest and lower cost mod to solve the collant T° problem.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by plip1953 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:09 am

Monza wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:39 am Of course but you'll not be able to do 2 consecutive laps because of water coolant temp ....
I'm not quite sure what you mean? In the last session of the day, finishing at around 3pm when ambient temps were pretty much at their highest, the car completed 11 consecutive 2 miles laps without any kind of attempt to let things cool down at any point.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Monza » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:39 am

Of course but you'll not be able to do 2 consecutive laps because of water coolant temp ....

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by reg » Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:17 am

The conversation with a couple of tuners has led me to believe fitting a more efficient IC will free up some power and keep the intake temperatures lower. It made a huge difference on the Noble. Also moving the exhaust seems semi sensible given the manifold exit?

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by plip1953 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:58 am

reg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm
plip1953 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:08 pm Yes, entirely as per factory spec. And good to have it confirmed that off throttle temp spikes are not a problem.

At yesterday's Cadwell Park test day we didn't see coolant temps go above 96degC whereas in similar ambient conditions we've routinely seem temps well over 100degC. Essentially this was achieved by routing additional airflow directly to the radiator. Will now evaluate whether this lays the foundations of a permanent fix or whether we go on to try out a number of other options.
Does the aero compromise the cooling as much as it appears to? I’m not sure why but mine seems to run reasonably ok, although it has only had one track outing so far. I did spec the bigger rad setup as Tom said it was needed, albeit they reckoned the IC was fine. Mine has always been decatted, not sure if this keeps some temperatures down in the bulkhead and if this has any impact on overall coolant temps?
I do remember that whilst the 3.5 never seemed to get as hot (coolant wise) it also suffered with power loss due to heat soak, nobody seemed to complain much about it, but it was always a thing with Ariels.
The winter plan will be to explore moving the IC to the rear of the car, so it can be much larger. It’s already been done in the US, so hopefully the pipework won’t affect the drive? Then see if a silencer can be made to fit where the original IC sits….and what benefits or downsides there are. Keen to see how the improvements pan out. All looks positive.
Anecdotally there does seem to be a bit of a difference re cooling temps (ie lower) with the front wing temporarily removed, but at the time this was tried the driver admitted he wasn't pushing quite as hard in case the wing actually made a difference to front end handling behaviour. But the path we're following assumes the front wing will always be fitted and we therefore need to compensate for any effects it might have.

What's causing you to want to change the intercooler? Lower charge temps is of course always nice to have, but the data we have to hand doesn't suggest that it's too much of an issue - ie compared to coolant temps. Similarly we are reasonably content with what we're seeing by way of oil temps, albeit we now have an oil cooler.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by plip1953 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:44 am

Monza wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:05 am What was the exterior temp at Cadwell when you were driving ? If it was less than 26°c outside , it is much more difficult to see water temp going higher than 100°c. Of course this depend of the track but this is what we have seen here on Atoms 4 in July between the morning and the afternoon (hot days). Till 26°c, all was fine, 28°c was the limit with Atom 4 between 103 and 106°c and when higher than 28°c : overheating more than 106°c.
The morning temps were 17-20degC, but in the afternoon it warmed up to around 24degC. Previously we've seen coolant temps of well over 100degC on cooler days than that. For example, 108degC when the ambient temp was only 15degC!! But I think it's worth bearing in mind that the guy who was driving the car at the time is a really quick driver and was extracting pretty much everything the car could offer over multiple consecutive laps.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Monza » Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:05 am

What was the exterior temp at Cadwell when you were driving ? If it was less than 26°c outside , it is much more difficult to see water temp going higher than 100°c. Of course this depend of the track but this is what we have seen here on Atoms 4 in July between the morning and the afternoon (hot days). Till 26°c, all was fine, 28°c was the limit with Atom 4 between 103 and 106°c and when higher than 28°c : overheating more than 106°c.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by reg » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm

plip1953 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:08 pm Yes, entirely as per factory spec. And good to have it confirmed that off throttle temp spikes are not a problem.

At yesterday's Cadwell Park test day we didn't see coolant temps go above 96degC whereas in similar ambient conditions we've routinely seem temps well over 100degC. Essentially this was achieved by routing additional airflow directly to the radiator. Will now evaluate whether this lays the foundations of a permanent fix or whether we go on to try out a number of other options.
Does the aero compromise the cooling as much as it appears to? I’m not sure why but mine seems to run reasonably ok, although it has only had one track outing so far. I did spec the bigger rad setup as Tom said it was needed, albeit they reckoned the IC was fine. Mine has always been decatted, not sure if this keeps some temperatures down in the bulkhead and if this has any impact on overall coolant temps?
I do remember that whilst the 3.5 never seemed to get as hot (coolant wise) it also suffered with power loss due to heat soak, nobody seemed to complain much about it, but it was always a thing with Ariels.
The winter plan will be to explore moving the IC to the rear of the car, so it can be much larger. It’s already been done in the US, so hopefully the pipework won’t affect the drive? Then see if a silencer can be made to fit where the original IC sits….and what benefits or downsides there are. Keen to see how the improvements pan out. All looks positive.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Curves Junkie » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:49 pm

plip1953 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:08 pm At yesterday's Cadwell Park test day we didn't see coolant temps go above 96degC whereas in similar ambient conditions we've routinely seem temps well over 100degC. Essentially this was achieved by routing additional airflow directly to the radiator. Will now evaluate whether this lays the foundations of a permanent fix or whether we go on to try out a number of other options.
This sound really good. :tu: :tu:
If you want - send me your solution by PM.

I am and really do not want to gloat, but I had already raised the issue here in this forum viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17608 in July 2019 and was only attacked by other users.
Now we have to make the best of it so that the success story of the Atom 4 continues.

Note that you also need to find a solution for the outgoing air behind the rad.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by plip1953 » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:08 pm

Curves Junkie wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:37 am @plip1953
If the factory have installed the engine, turbo, blow-off and sensors as Honda do - the rising AIRT after lifting the throttle is normally and no problem.
Yes, entirely as per factory spec. And good to have it confirmed that off throttle temp spikes are not a problem.

At yesterday's Cadwell Park test day we didn't see coolant temps go above 96degC whereas in similar ambient conditions we've routinely seem temps well over 100degC. Essentially this was achieved by routing additional airflow directly to the radiator. Will now evaluate whether this lays the foundations of a permanent fix or whether we go on to try out a number of other options.

Re: The curious case of the Atom 4 Cooling

by Curves Junkie » Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:37 am

[mention]plip1953[/mention]
If the factory have installed the engine, turbo, blow-off and sensors as Honda do - the rising AIRT after lifting the throttle is normally and no problem.
[mention]Yorkshire[/mention] has already confirmed that the temp rises, although he has supplied the cooler air externally.

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