Ariel.Club Forum

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Yep I agree Fiesty.  I'd be all for heavy punishment for this if I thought it would really put an end to it.

[quote="dp35"]
It would be great if the FIA punished Ferrari for this.  But if they do, then in the future they'll just find a less obvious way of orchestrating this sort of thing.  I don't think it can be prevented.  Team tactics exist in all forms of motor racing, especially at the end of a close championship battle.  But never so early and obvious as in F1.

Fiesty - IMO comparing this to Stepneygate is a bit much.
[/quote]
I agree. Ferrari should have used better tact if they wanted Alonso to win. But they didnt and thus should be penalized for making it so obvious.

My mistake, I didnt intend to compare to Liegate or Stephneygate. I just meant that McLaren have been punished for violating the rules, and rightly so in both occasions. All I am saying is Ferrari cant get away with lying to the Stewards and the public. Its way too obvious. Massa "accidently upshifting 3 times" is a joke of an excuse.

fiesty

[quote="dp35"]
Fiesty - IMO comparing this to Stepneygate is a bit much.
[/quote]

I think the punishment he referred to was Stepneygate but the incident was liegate!  The latter having serious consequences for McLaren and some of its top men but not a huge fine.

I agree completely that this tactic ruined a good race, and would have much preferred to see it play out.  But this was clearly not the 1st time we've had to endure this crap, from various teams.  Last year Brawn did it to Barichello several times, but never this blatantly.

I agree that Ferrari was dumb to not allow Massa to win.  To think that Alonso can still win the WDC is foolish, and they still would've likely had the 1-2 team finish.

It would be great if the FIA punished Ferrari for this.  But if they do, then in the future they'll just find a less obvious way of orchestrating this sort of thing.  I don't think it can be prevented.  Team tactics exist in all forms of motor racing, especially at the end of a close championship battle.  But never so early and obvious as in F1.

Fiesty - IMO comparing this to Stepneygate is a bit much.

[quote="dp35"]
Alonso was clearly faster - which can be attributed to his skill, daring, talent, etc. 
[/quote]

Sure. But the win or overtake, which was my point, wasn't gained that way. I think it's poor that Alonso got his extra points over second by being given it, when Webber/Vettel and Hamilton/Button have been proper duels and confirms that all four of them want the points. The McLaren drivers made a better job of racing each other, and the Red Bulls screwed it up when they duelled, but at least they raced each other.

If, as they keep saying, the man you have to beat first is your team mate, that objective becomes a bit of a joke if one lets another through. Maybe Massa and Webber should form a Number 2 Drivers' Club.  ;)

I dont think it matters who is the faster car within a team. The rules clearly state NO TEAM ORDERS. Ferrari should be punished. It turns out that $100k is the maximum the Stewards could impose on Ferrari. Wait for the World Council meeting, I think harsher penalties will be handed down. If the FIA are serious about this rule, then expect bigger punishment. If the WC dont come up with a bigger penalty like race bans or points penalties, than all teams will have a precedent to continue team orders. After the backlash from all the fans, the FIA surely cannot let this type of activity to continue. The FIA have to set an example, just like they did with McLaren in 2007.

What a PR blunder by Ferrari, instead of having a 1-2, and Massa winning, who one year to this day was sitting in a coma after a savage accident, they shoot themselves in the foot with a shotgun. I mean, seriously? Ferrari think the world doesnt understand what is going on? How stupid do they view their own fans and worldwide F1 viewers.

I have a lot of sympathy for Massa now. The crybaby in the sister car again gets his way. Stop complaining and pass the car if they are faster. I am glad McLaren rid of this crybaby out of their team.

fiesty

[quote="dp35"]
[quote="Steve Gibson"]
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't fight for that win or drive for it, he was handed it. Whether or not he has the greater chance of catching the top three and their point scores, today he hasn't advanced by skill, daring or talent. [/quote]

Sorry have to disagree here.  The team encouraged Massa to hold or extend his gap to Alonso, which he could not do.  Alonso was clearly faster - which can be attributed to his skill, daring, talent, etc.  Whether he was faster enough to execute the pass is something I too would've liked to have seen.  But with Vettel catching up, the team was wise to ask Massa to let Alonso pass, rather than deal with it the way Red Bull did a few races back.  Although letting them fight for the win would be much more entertaining for us, IMO it wouldn't likely happen anyways.  Massa made it obvious so the world would know.  But in the following laps Alonso showed once and for all who was the faster red car.
[/quote]

Don't shoot me down in flames here but I believe that Massa was beginning to pull away from Alonso prior to Vettel posing any threat at all. Also, Massa's fastest lap was within a tenth of Alonso.
I get that Alonso is a better driver who stands a better chance in the Championship overall but the point here is that the rules are written in such a way as to prevent this happening and that is the important difference between anow and what has happened in the past. It was very recently (double diffuser) that Ferrari were complaining about other teams not acting within the spirit of the rules and threatening to quit if that situation was not resolved. FOTA have gone a long way to calm those waters but Ferrari's actions certainly don't comply to the spirit and most feel that they have broken the actual rules too.
F1 is a team sport and teams should be allowed to do what they want but they are not and therefore everyone should comply to the current regulations. Fans were robbed of a great end to the race, the bookies can't be too pleased and how Massa motivates himself now I have no idea!

Still only 6 days 'til we find out

Cheers,

Stu

[quote="Steve Gibson"]
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't fight for that win or drive for it, he was handed it. Whether or not he has the greater chance of catching the top three and their point scores, today he hasn't advanced by skill, daring or talent. [/quote]

Sorry have to disagree here.  The team encouraged Massa to hold or extend his gap to Alonso, which he could not do.  Alonso was clearly faster - which can be attributed to his skill, daring, talent, etc.  Whether he was faster enough to execute the pass is something I too would've liked to have seen.  But with Vettel catching up, the team was wise to ask Massa to let Alonso pass, rather than deal with it the way Red Bull did a few races back.  Although letting them fight for the win would be much more entertaining for us, IMO it wouldn't likely happen anyways.  Massa made it obvious so the world would know.  But in the following laps Alonso showed once and for all who was the faster red car.

When Hamilton & and his team principals were found guilty of lying to the FIA a few years back, they were smacked with a massive fine and demoted down the pit lane - and justly so. I can't remember the full details, but it was something along those lines.

My understanding is that the maximum fine the Stewards can make is $100,000. By virtue of the fact that Ferrari have been fined the maximum, isn't it implicit that not only did the drivers lie but the team principals did too?

Team orders are a function of the sport. But mid race team orders to let somebody win who wouldnt have otherwise is wrong - by today's laws. When there was no rule Ferrari was fined usd1.0 million.....8 years on with a rule there to break they are fined usd100k.....so does the rule stand or what ?

Ferrari get it easy - if this was McLaren there would have been disqualifications, and points dropped.

Team orders are as I say part of the sport of course, but then again, Massa isnt exactly out of the running - with so many points on offer the second you dont finish a race you lose alot of ground. At this stage in the season there is no need for it. Later on the supposed driver no 2 can be told 'if driver 1 is behind make sure he gets by without too much difficulty'.

T

Steve,

You've lost your respect for Alonso?????

What the grassing up of his team when at McLaren; taking the win when his team mate was asked to crash on purpose with no remorse and it takes this for you to lose your respect for him?

It would appear most great drivers are also willing to cheat if it helps; Schumacher and Senna, for example.

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
Two words

Peter Collins...

[/quote]


mmmm just say the word – ohhhh!!

Two words

Peter Collins...

(not mentioned on TV, incidentally... but should have been)

T'was ever thus.

didnt see the race but wasnt the "no team orders" rule introduced if my memory serves me right because ferrari did this in the first instance!    will they never learn.
that spring hitting Massas head must have done more damage than we first thought.